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Author Topic: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar  (Read 1113 times)

Offline Waffles_vs_Tacos

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 26
Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« on: December 04, 2023, 10:06:12 AM »
In the supplement I have, it lists Iberian and Celtiberian Scutarii as medium infantry, but Hastati as Heavy Infantry.

Both used a Scutum, both typically wore armor, the same type of helmet, typically, both had Pila or Pila like weapons, simular swords, etc. Both historically fought as heavy infantry. In Italy the Celtiberians and Iberian Scutarii likely used a lot of looted Roman equipment as well.

It seems it would be better to rate Scutarii as Heavy Infantry in the Hail Ceasar games, or is there something I am missing?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 10:24:33 AM by Waffles_vs_Tacos »

Offline Ran The Cid

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 68
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2023, 01:29:21 PM »
In Hail Caesar, heavy vs medium is more than just equipment.  The unit type includes training, moral and how the unit is used on the battle field. 

That said, my long time opponent is convinced that heavy Roman units are just a little bit too good.  We've been experimenting with dropping Hastati to medium, following the older Camillan Rome list.  Or, if you wanted to set up a battle like Cannae (with the famous bend but don't break center line), having Scutarii as Heavy would be justified.

Offline Waffles_vs_Tacos

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 26
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2023, 08:04:05 PM »
Having Hastati and other units in bronze pectoral armor as medium infantry, and the heavier troops as Heavy, representing experience and better gear.

Offline FierceKitty

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1710
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2023, 12:58:18 AM »
I'd question the "typically wore armour" for Iberians.
The laws of probability do not apply to my dice in wargames or to my finesses in bridge.

Offline Waffles_vs_Tacos

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 26
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2023, 08:59:40 AM »
I would imagine at least a portion of Hannibals Iberian Scutarii had armor going into the campaign, and after Trebia, which was right at the outset of the Italian portion of the war, a great deal more Scutarii likely had armor from looting it off dead or captured Roman's?


Offline mellis1644

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 569
    • Adventures in painting
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2023, 05:01:00 PM »
This is quite a common wargame classification/split of the tribes/groups. Most systems have such a split.  The medium vs. heavy as mentioned is more how they fight and tactics vs. their equipment. It is hard to prove how an ancient group formed up in any clear sense but generally the 'wargamer wisdom' is some tribes used tighter blocks of troops than others...

In HC I think it's just their combat stats (and thus effectiveness) which change. In other systems medium infantry are better in terrain as well which differentiates the two types more. Either way in theory for a balanced game you likely have more  medium infantry vs. heavy for the same combat effectiveness.
   
It's your game - tweak the stats as you want IMO. :)
My painting blog is at: http://mellis1644.wordpress.com/

Offline Ockius

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 260
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2023, 07:49:01 PM »
One benefit of the Warlord rules in the Hail Caesar model is you can tweak the stats as you see fit. If you are playing games with points values then there is information on how many points each stat increase add to a unit's cost.

I did this with Pike and Shotte and created my own army lists to print out for play with mates, as the official stat lines did not feel right based on what I had read.
My armies:
- Henry VIII's army (WIP) 15mm
- Ancient Germans (28mm)
- Ancient Belgae (Gauls with German allies) (28mm)
- Massilian Greeks (Greeks and Gallic mercenaries/subjects) (28mm)
- A few EI Romans (28mm)
- Handful of WW2 British (15mm)
- A load of old 1993-1999ish Warhammer Orcs and Goblins

Offline FierceKitty

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1710
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2023, 02:26:17 AM »
I would imagine at least a portion of Hannibals Iberian Scutarii had armor going into the campaign, and after Trebia, which was right at the outset of the Italian portion of the war, a great deal more Scutarii likely had armor from looting it off dead or captured Roman's?

Yes, agreed; if you go on fighting after thumping an enemy who normally wears armour, you'd be silly not to grab a bit off the dead or captured. But that doesn't make it "normal" - the native Iberians were all over the peninsula for centuries, and Spain isn't naturally rich.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 01:03:42 AM by FierceKitty »

Offline mellis1644

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 569
    • Adventures in painting
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2023, 03:01:44 PM »
Spain/Italy are hot in summer and wearing metal armour adds to those issues. The armour also did help the guys who you are looting it from (is one perspective as well)... It also changes how you can fight/move or at least for how long you can do those things.

So, it might be troops saw the metal as good form for a cash/additional payment which can be converted into
 food, drink etc vs. always wearing it. I'm sure some did wear it but likely some also used it for other things.

Note, we have loads of records of troops in later periods modifying kit to make it easier to handle/carry but that also makes themselves 'less combat effective'  - shortening pikes in the renaissance comes to mind. So guys on the ground have other factors at play which affect these decisions. The wargamer view does not take  those into effect.

The nice thing with HC is you can modify stats as you want for what you want your troops to have done.:)

Offline VonAkers

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 327
Re: Celtiberian / Iberian Scutarii in Hail Ceasar
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2023, 07:59:30 PM »
Waffles
HC rules and or army lists, are far from being Written in Blood ..
More of a Good Starting  Sand pit to be moulded to your own experience , and thoughts .
Take the CeltIberian Scutari for example .
If they were mercenaries then their Elan, Equipment and experience could easily class them as HI , they were pretty good.
In HC the classification of Heavy Infantry because of the mechanism can also reflect Less well equipped Troops with Higher Morale IMHO
 I would have them as Probably have them as  Medium Infantry,  Tough Fighters as well as Brave  with Pilum .
Also I would tend to have the Hastati as Mediums, but WRG Lists do say Heavy Inf  .. which is a point I dont agree with,
Cheers
     

 

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