Is The Sword and the Flame still for sale?

[nedpatrick]

Good Morning,

Is it still possible to buy the rule set The Sword and the Flame?  I know they have a website but it looks a little out of date.  I sent an email to the address listed on the site but have gotten no response.  Has anyone ever ordered from them?  Thanks.

Ned

[FifteensAway]

If available, I think from other sources.  First thought is to check with The Virtual Armchair General, I think he was trying to work out being able to sell the rules.  The last surviving member of the family sounds to be too financially unstable to be in a position to keep the rules in production plus she seems to have moved to a backwater at last report.  Doubtful she is very internet savvy.  It was her late father until his passing and her late sister who were the force behind keeping it going after Larry Brom's passing.

[Redshank]

I bought TSATF 20t edition through the website in June 2024.

Not sure when you contacted them, but I can imagine small businesses not being quick to respond at this time of year.

[sjwalker51]

As mentioned, Sergeants 3 (publisher of TSATF) is likely dead in the water following the death of Lori Brom, daughter of the author.

There’s a couple of threads about the situation on ‘The Miniatures Page’ if you’re prepared to enter that den of iniquity but for now, finding a second hand copy on EBay seems to be the best bet unless someone reliable, such as Patrick at TVAG, acquires the rights to them.

Having said that, the rules are very much a product of their time (mid 70’s), with clunky mechanics and little real period feel. Despite their huge popularity in the USA and their importance in generating interest in a niche gaming period, I’d stick with more modern rulesets such as Men Who Would Be Kings or Battles for Empire, depending on the level of game you want to play.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

You might be able to find out a bit more from the Bayou Wars Con website.  Lots of the gamers at that show are/were big fans of TSatF and the abroms were part of it in years past.  where the big stack of avaible rule books ended up is bound to be found with them.

[Mad Guru]

nedpatrick,

You've already got good info re: the Sergeants3.com website.  Hopefully you'll hear back from current proprietor, Christi Brom.  If not, then as suggested above, an eBay search is your best bet.  I suggest you start out searching for "The Sword and the Flame 20th Anniversary" which is the latest version.

With great respect to sjwalker51, I must note that I disagree with his opinion and love the rules.  Of course, opinions, based on tastes and experiences, will vary.  I won't get into gritty detail regarding their strengths and weaknesses, but as a historically-minded Victorian Colonial gamer, I think they do have period flavor.  They also have a flare for the dramatic, which some describe as "Hollywood" gaming style.  The melee system is loved by some, hated by others.  Some (perhaps sjwalker51 amongst them) see it as a clunky time-suck, while others (myself included) see it as thrill-packed, suspenseful, and lots of fun.  At every TSATF game I've ever run, at home or a convention, there's been at least one point when a melee was fought with cheers of victory and/or groans of defeat being heard at high volume.

Of course, there's no guarantee which side of the fence your own opinion will land on, but if you can get your hands on a copy, I think it would be worth doing so.

***I just spoke with a mutual friend who is going to reach out to Christi Brom and ask what the current status of fulfilling orders is.  If I get any info I'll return here and post it.***

[Old Contemptable]

Here is a set for sale.

https://www.nobleknight.com/P/2147570953/Sword-and-the-Flame-The-20th-Anniversary-Edition

Certainly TSATF is the best set of skirmish rules ever. Some say the finest rules ever written by the hand of man.

[nedpatrick]

Thanks for the replies.  I did reach out to The Virtual Armchair General and he confirmed that the rules are currently in limbo.

[NickNascati]

Nedpatrick,  TVAG was likely referring to the 40th edition.  As has been pointed out, copies of the 20th are available.

[Old Contemptable]

TSATF for sale at Noble Knight.

https://www.nobleknight.com/P/2147570953/Sword-and-the-Flame-The-20th-Anniversary-Edition

[nedpatrick]

I found a copy on ebay for a decent price.  Hopefully I can find some of the supplements sometime.

[giorgio]

As mentioned, Sergeants 3 (publisher of TSATF) is likely dead in the water following the death of Lori Brom, daughter of the author.

There’s a couple of threads about the situation on ‘The Miniatures Page’ if you’re prepared to enter that den of iniquity but for now, finding a second hand copy on EBay seems to be the best bet unless someone reliable, such as Patrick at TVAG, acquires the rights to them.

Having said that, the rules are very much a product of their time (mid 70’s), with clunky mechanics and little real period feel. Despite their huge popularity in the USA and their importance in generating interest in a niche gaming period, I’d stick with more modern rulesets such as Men Who Would Be Kings or Battles for Empire, depending on the level of game you want to play.

Dear brother in faith, there is a great "religion/rule war" actually between followers of different rules in the topic "Never trust anyone on the Frontier" an epic NWF Campaign" and, of course, Mad Guru is the leader of the heretics following TSATF. If you like different rules approach to the period you may want to have a look at that. I want to add to your list also Black Powder and  Blood and Steel as interesting alternatives, not for little skirmish. They both worked well in Genoa wargaming club "Garibaldi" where we tested other as TMWWBK. Of course forbidden books such as TSATF are banned!

[Old Contemptable]

Glad you found a copy. TSATF is the best. Accept no substitutes. Infinitely adaptable and a joy to play. The mechanics are time porven and easy to learn. Plenty of period flavor. Can be played strictly historical or in the manner of Hollywood B movies. We use them for the Sudan, NWF and French North Africa. They can be adapted to most any period. Dozens of variants.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/59568506@N02/collections/72157721239713770/

[n815e]

The current owner is homeless and not fulfilling orders.

[FifteensAway]

Re: Christi Brom, stay tuned for further updates from those who actually know her - but not me.

On the whole alternative rules front, Fistful of Lead and its Bigger Battles variant is another option to give consideration.  I've played TSATF many times and own a variety of the versions/variations.  I will play TSATF if someone else is running the rules but I choose not to run them myself.  Fistful of Lead has become my go to set of rules for any small to medium scale skirmish games with Bigger Battles being for the larger actions.  For large format battles, I resort to Rank and File.  Both are straight forward and simple at core but allow a lot of 'tinkering'.  And perhaps the best part of both is players pick up the rules very quickly, generally by turn three brand new players can run on their own but for an occasional question. 

Why FFOL over TSATF?  Simple.  FFOL allows more characterful actions with all the Traits but most especially, in my opinion at least, is the Task Roll option.  There just isn't any comparable bit in TSATF - closest is after a game is over you can award a figure a medal.  In FFOL, figures (or units) can evolve over time - becoming better or even worse.

But the TSATF crowd are dyed-in-the-wool "True Believers" for sure.  They "love" their rules.  Sort of on a par with the Pulp Alley crowd I think.  Though the man behind Pulp Alley doesn't seem to be posting here on LAF anymore, or maybe changed his 'handle'. 

Another wonderful benefit of FFOL is you can run anything from Stone Age (or earlier if you lean that way) to Star Wars and everything in between - and beyond.  Some claim rules need to be specific to a period to give you the feel of the period.  Well, maybe.  I am on the side of period feel comes from knowledge of the players using period appropriate tactics, the right figures in the right paint jobs, and appropriate terrain.  Or, and this is really where I land, rules should stay out of the way of having fun pushing our toys around.  FFOL and RandF do that for me. 

But to each their own.