FV432 - Peak Turret

[SirRoystonPapworth]

Does anyone know when the Peak Engineering turret was first installed on FV432s?

British Military Vehicles of 1981 refers to it, so I assume it?s 1980 at the latest, but as I am aiming for mid-late 1970s, I?d like to have an idea of if I should be using them or not.

It?s an amazingly difficult question to google. Plenty of references to them having them, just no dates?

[Hobbit]

I have a training manual from 1975 that describes the guidance therein on the 432 with Peak turret as 'provisional'. This video from the Silver Jubilee in 1977 shows some on parade at approx 18 minutes in https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00k22j0/silver-jubilee-review-of-the-british-army&ved=2ahUKEwi0mKHJ5qiMAxWXQkEAHUA4DF8QwqsBegQIDxAE&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw1_h4vITlL7gxFtr2OmVb4f

[SJWi]

Sir Royston, I still have Terry Gander's "Encyclopedia of the Modern British Army" published in 1980. It describes the Peak Turret as "in service" which together with Hobbit's answer might point to a date of the late '70s? 

[dadlamassu]

Going from memory here. Around 1974 or5 I did a course at the School of Infantry.  There the organisation was for each platoon of FV432 mounted infantry to have 2 of them fitted with the GPMG turret.  Now whether, when and if this was completed as I transferred out of the infantry.

[Rick]

Organisation charts are great, but not a reflection of what is actually fielded - in a similar vein, the mid 80's organisation called for the recce squadron to have a full troop of Spartans, each equipped with GSR. Most recce squadrons got the Spartans but only a few were ever equipped with GSR - no more than 1 in a few troops. Similarly, only a few regiments were ever equipped with peak turrets and not in any great numbers - the decision to switch over to the Warrior stopped the procurement of any more peak turrets.
I think the Berlin Brigade had several of these, along with the 12 Fox-turreted FV432's.

[sultanbev]

My notes say 1975 for the FV432 peak turret, with full inventory by 1978.
At 2 per platoon that gives 6 per company, 18 per battalion, with c11 battalions in Germany in 1984 equates to about 200 vehicles, not an unreasonable production run.

However like Rick says, it's unlikely every unit got a full allocation, the British Army being what it was at the time. No doubt some battalions had whole platoons with them, whilst others had none at all.

[Rick]

Unfortunately the most accurate information I've been able to find about numbers delivered is "Many FV432's have been converted." That's it! If anyone has a better number I'd be astounded but interested.

[carlos marighela]

I think the Berlin Brigade had several of these, along with the 12 Fox-turreted FV432's.

Nope, not quite. Twelve of the 13 Rarden turreted FV432s* ended up in Berlin. Beyond that, there were one or two fitted out as command wagons and IIRC a few fitters vehicles. No Peak GPMG turreted versions. There were indeed a dozen or so Foxes. The Rarden armed FV432s and Foxes made up the recce elements of the assigned battalions.

Now what you really want is the experimental twin GPMG cupola mounted SCAT system. Yes, it was an actual thing and popular legend has it that squaddies decided that the acronym stood for Should have Cost a Tenner. 


*Turrets taken from the Fox not Scimitar.

[Rick]

Ah well just shows the confusion around where the Peak turrets ended up.

Also I think I made the point that the 'Fox-turreted FV432' was an FV432 with the turret from a Fox (and, like the later Sabre conversion, it had to be fitted with a thick turret ring so it would actually fit), armed with the 30mm Rarden but thanks for the additional clarification?

[carlos marighela]

Not disagreeing with you on that point Rick, rather reinforcing it.

Dunno how many times I've read that the Rarden armed version had a Scimitar turret. They do look similar so there is that.

[Rick]

The Fox turret was chosen because they had them to spare and also they were a lower profile turret than the Scimitar (same reason on the Sabre). Unfortunately because the Fox was developed from the Ferret, it had that little housing on the hull to put a turret; when they tried putting it on the FV432 (then later the Scorpion hull as the Sabre), the gun wouldn't depress and the gun mantlet scraped a circle on the hull. They had to put the turret on a slightly elevated turret ring so it would actually work, negating the whole 'low profile turret' idea. The Scimitar II, being an actual Scimitar turret on a Spartan hull, didn't have that problem.
I'm quite interested in the CVR(T) family!

[carlos marighela]

Similar things needed to be done when the Australian Army bunged Saladin and then Scorpion turrets on their M113s to make the FSV and MRV respectively. A spacer ring was required.

I contemplated kit bashing an FV432 with the Fox turret for my Berlin collection but it's an expensive option and meant having to do that damn camo pattern again. I did it for a Chieftain and despite it looking quite reasonable I'm not keen to do all that masking again anytime soon.

At least half the Foxes and some of the Ferrets were left in green and black, so it eased my burden and gave them use outside of Berlin.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Am I right in remembering the Sabre is a Scorpion hull with a Fox turret?

[Rick]

Am I right in remembering the Sabre is a Scorpion hull with a Fox turret?

Yes it is, although with a turret ring to raise the Fox turret up a little bit. The only other real change they made was to replace the co-axial mg with a chain gun for a faster rate of fire.

[SirRoystonPapworth]

Thank you Gentlemen All.

I feel better that it wasn?t a simple question.

It sounds like a consensus of mid ?70s onwards is reasonable, which works for me.

Appreciate the help and SJW, hope to see you at Partizan again.

Cheers all?