The Stalwart companies ownership getting old?

[FifteensAway]

A question that has been rolling around in my head the last few months: how many of the stalwart wargaming companies are run by folks "long in the tooth" and getting to retirement, or worse, age?  Seems like someone in their late 50s is fairly young amongst many of the companies.  Mind you, we haven't seen real historical miniature company booths at wargaming shows in my neck of the woods for 15 years or more so I have no idea if my impression is real or off base.  But it seems to be the case with so many companies falling by the wayside the last few years (Warrior Miniatures owned by man in his 80s for instance).

So many historical miniature companies that we all know got started back in late 70s to early 90s which makes the youngest of those companies at least 30 years old.  I'm sure there are newer players but I still wonder.

So, for those in the know, am I off base or is a great 'melting away' imminent (rarely do such small companies have succession plans)? 

And a companion concern: with the advent of 3D printing, as the stalwarts fade away, will there be any desire for new folk to step into the fray - in metal at least? 

Great curiosity but with limited personal concern since I have almost all I need or want; in fact, I've finally found a way to express my situation: do I own my hobby or does it own me since I have so much more than I need?  Definitely on the journey to make sure I am the owner, not the owned!

[HerbertTarkel]

I think, ?many?.

How many retirements and acquisitions have been announced just in the past 12-18 months? Lots, I think.

I started in ?the hobby? when I was young, I am not young anymore. Those who own the companies ? cannot, by logic, be young at all.

Age is number yadda yadda yadda, but the fact remains? I think you?re quite right.

[Mammoth miniatures]

A question that has been rolling around in my head the last few months: how many of the stalwart wargaming companies are run by folks "long in the tooth" and getting to retirement, or worse, age?  Seems like someone in their late 50s is fairly young amongst many of the companies.  Mind you, we haven't seen real historical miniature company booths at wargaming shows in my neck of the woods for 15 years or more so I have no idea if my impression is real or off base.  But it seems to be the case with so many companies falling by the wayside the last few years (Warrior Miniatures owned by man in his 80s for instance).

So many historical miniature companies that we all know got started back in late 70s to early 90s which makes the youngest of those companies at least 30 years old.  I'm sure there are newer players but I still wonder.

So, for those in the know, am I off base or is a great 'melting away' imminent (rarely do such small companies have succession plans)? 

And a companion concern: with the advent of 3D printing, as the stalwarts fade away, will there be any desire for new folk to step into the fray - in metal at least? 

Great curiosity but with limited personal concern since I have almost all I need or want; in fact, I've finally found a way to express my situation: do I own my hobby or does it own me since I have so much more than I need?  Definitely on the journey to make sure I am the owner, not the owned!

I suppose I'll jump in here as a youngish owner of a small company set up in the last few years - I'm 30 and mammoth miniatures has been doing shows now for about 4 years - this will be our 4th salute in april.
It seems that whilst there are alot of companies owned by retired hobbyists that may run down activity over the next decade or so, there's no shortage of new ventures popping up, but the changing landscape of the hobby and retail means that they often arrive slowly via avenues like kickstarter, existing as digital only enterprises until they are a bit more established. I started with a small kickstarter in 2020 and it's taken 5 years for me to now be at a point where im considering dropping some hours from my day job to keep up with demand.
 It's always hard to know with these things whether the changing of one generation for another will succeed, in part because the canopy needs to thin before new saplings can break through and grow.

over the last few years there have been a number of retirements that have seen assets change ownership, and I don't see why this wouldn't carry on. I know for myself that there are ranges I would happily buy and maintain if they were available, if only to stop them disappearing.

Metal is probably going to decrease in popularity amongst manufacturers for a few reasons - the price of raw metal hasn't gone down since the pandemic when it skyrocketed. The machinery needed to create vulcanized moulds/spincast white metal is no longer easily attainable and when it is available it's either very expensive OR 70 years old and has gone through 4 different companies. Certainly in the UK I can only think of 2 manufacturers of spincasting machines - tiranti (now potterycrafts)  and spinbox - both small batch, not always available. if you want a new one you need to drop several thousand pound ordering from overseas. Resin or 3D printing is a far cheaper upfront investment.

In the very very long term the changing nature of creative and technical education is going to alter the ability of independent creatives to start and maintain businesses selling physical figures - No matter how good your printer is you still need to know how to sculpt (or at least have a critical enough eye to know whether somethinbg looks good) and that means knowing how to draw, how to work in three dimensions etc. I teach sculpture and there is a real skills deficit at the moment with incoming university students - not knowing how to read a ruler is probably going to be pretty prohibitive to your ability to write and test game rules for example.

Overall I'd say you don't need to worry - the indie wargaming scene is absolutely thriving, and generally as people get older their tastes diversify. I currently only do fantasy and sci fi stuff, But I've got an English civil war title in the works and a few minis in corks because the freedom granted by a little bit of established presence allows me to diversify into less profitable ventures.  I imagine there are many others in the indie scene who even now are thinking the exact same thing, secretly working away on their historical projects ready to release them on the world when our hairlines receded to just the right spot.

[boneio]

over the last few years there have been a number of retirements that have seen assets change ownership, and I don't see why this wouldn't carry on. I know for myself that there are ranges I would happily buy and maintain if they were available, if only to stop them disappearing.

This ^ most owners do seem to sell up before they shut down, there are still some up for sale at present. I'm young(ish) as well and would quite like to own one of the ranges Magister are selling off but I can't afford it and I don't think I'd make the money back anyway 

But therein lies the rub - as the current generation of small (let's face it, cottage industry really) wargame business owners ages out of it, there will I'm sure be some people reaching later stages in their careers and lives who can then afford to take on a 'hobby' job as a way to stay busy whilst being semi-retired.

And/or as you say in your post, perhaps some of the younger gen will gather enough momentum that they can start to diversify by buying up older ranges.

The old ranges may never again make much money as a lot of the 'audience' will already have what they need, and the market continues to see new products almost constantly, but some may hold at least some value through nostalgia etc. See Mirliton gradually bringing more Grenadier models back into production - I'm too young to have any nostalgia for them but I like them, often more than modern 3d-sculpted designs.

So I share your optimism - I think we'll sadly lose some ranges entirely but we're gaining new ones constantly, I believe we're in the golden age currently.

[Mammoth miniatures]

This ^ most owners do seem to sell up before they shut down, there are still some up for sale at present. I'm young(ish) as well and would quite like to own one of the ranges Magister are selling off but I can't afford it and I don't think I'd make the money back anyway 

I think the economics of business ownership, just like home ownership and children, are so unfriendly that they cause many people to avoid the risk.

Personally I come from a creative background so things like casting and illustration were free, but if you don't have those skills you need to pay for them, and that means dropping lots of money on a potential risk. As I said above the cost of everything from metal to machinery has risen so it's a major turn off for many. Then there's property and space - no home of your own? Then no spare room to run your business from. Many of the older companies are occupying spaces that are unattainable to newer start ups (take navwar and their dedicated high street shop. Personally I'd love to own a little shop and do my making upstairs like an oldschool toy maker, but the contemporary retail and property environment makes that impossible, so instead I work out of my ?200 a month artist studio that's a 45 minute journey from my house and doesn't have heating or a lift which rather impacts my ability to plan for long term growth. It's far easier to run a business as a hobby when you paid for everything 40 years ago and you know where you'll be living in 5 years time.

I think we'll never see an end to new cottage industry start ups , but it'll probably follow the emerging trend of "start small, stay small" individuals growing as they can afford too, or "fuck it we ball!" Style companies that come out nowhere with a pre existing fortune and go straight for the mass market HIPS kits and hope to god they manage to catch and audience.

I will say that at shows I tend to meet alot of very friendly and enthusiastic hobbyist who have a game they want to get published, and all they need is someone to write it, edit it, illustrate it, make the minis, do the casting, distribute it and market it - and these folks are exactly the sort of folks that would in cheaper years probably drop the cash needed to make that a reality, but at the moment are quite sensibly keeping their 2d6 powder dry. So maybe if there's another 90's style turnaround we'll get enough 90s style mini gaming renaissance.

[mikedemana]

Another issue is tax liabilities, at least here in the U.S. My friends and I started First Command Wargames back in 2014. We set it up as a Limited Liability Company (LLC) to minimize any financial risks to us. We didn't expect to make a ton of money, but it would be a fun way to sell our rules sets through print on demand or PDF download. We would fill out our taxes every year and send them in to the IRS. However, the IRS regularly harassed us, saying we owed them lots of money. Even if we had a certified tax attorney fill out our taxes, like clockwork we got a letter saying we owed some phenomenal amount. No matter how many times we paid a tax attorney to supposedly take care of it any problems from the past, the next year we'd get another letter from them saying we owed more than our company could conceivably make in three decades.

We eventually decided to dissolve the LLC and give up.  I would counsel anyone starting a business that if you are not a tax savant yourself, and easily understand tax forms and laws of your country (especially if it is the U.S.), to NOT DO IT!

Sorry for the negativity, but that is an aspect of business or starting a company that some folks may not realize.

Mike Demana

[Elbows]

I think you're just seeing the generational gap between small-time cottage metal figure companies and modern STL churning home studios.

We're more or less past the days of hawking small zip-loc baggies of metal minis spun in someone's garage...to now downloading and printing STL's designed on someone's laptop.  Similarly you're not going to find "zines" at local gaming conventions or hand-stapled copies of rules being sold out of the trunk of someone's car.  Now you're downloading PDF's on your phone and paying electronically.

The only thing that could be dying off at a pace is physical sculpting.  I do think the overwhelming majority of new sculptors will be doing digital in place of greenstuffing and 3:1 dollies, etc.

There are more STL shops, studios, sculptors, and more indie-games being produced now than any time in history.  Instead of printing off copies of your type-written game at a copy shop, you're now uploading it to Amazon or some other POD service, etc.

With regards to historical wargaming, you have solid companies still churning out new plastic kits monthly for a variety of historical settings (Victrix is simply on fire at the moment).  Will some small, boutique ranges disappear?  Absolutely.  But when a gap exists - someone will fill it, that's the nature of the hobby.

We don't order by mail, or pay CoD anymore...just changing times, but there is so much stuff being put out now it's wild.

[black hat miniatures]

I retired last July after running Black Hat Miniatures/ Imperial Miniatures for just over 20 years - 18 of those as my sole income.  I am 62 this year and simply decided that as I could afford to retire I couldn't see any reason not to.

There are a lot of companies run by people in their 50s and 60s and we will see quite a few retirements over the next few years, but the ranges will (mostly) be sold on and carry on in some fashion. 

The metal figures will be around for a while if only to service people like me who don't like/buy multi-part plastic figures (I am mostly buying Minifigs nowadays to create collections I didn't have when I was 15!).

Seba still produce casting machines in the UK and service the older MCP, etc machines so there is a source of professional machines in the UK.

That said, the old spin casters which are 70 years older are still going strong as an example of decent solid british engineering from the 1950s!

[Cat]

It is a factor that I weigh into my purchasing decisions.  Watching the current trends of closures, older companies definitely get boosted higher up the wishlist.
 
For the last several years, I had gotten much better about completing more DBA armies than new purchases.  Recently started losing the race to Xeno again.  Trade wars, shipping costs, and owners aging out all added up to fuel some decisions.

[Mammoth miniatures]

We're more or less past the days of hawking small zip-loc baggies of metal minis spun in someone's garage...to now downloading and printing STL's designed on someone's laptop.  Similarly you're not going to find "zines" at local gaming conventions or hand-stapled copies of rules being sold out of the trunk of someone's car.  Now you're downloading PDF's on your phone and paying electronically.

The only thing that could be dying off at a pace is physical sculpting.  I do think the overwhelming majority of new sculptors will be doing digital in place of greenstuffing and 3:1 dollies, etc.

You just described my whole business model 

Id actually say at the moment there's a real push for physical stuff - as the hobby moves more and more online and so much of the dialogue and community becomes digital, people seem to really want and respond too the oldschool hand made, sold out someone's bag stuff. There's pretty much a whole subculture emerging now that very much wants hand made, hand cast, hand printed creative stuff, the only difference is that the internet is the facilitator of these products.

[Elbows]

Yep, that's the joy of everything...there will always be the quasi counter-culture stuff.  Lead Adventure itself is an example.  It's more or less an oasis from the usual Warhammer-crowded garbage forums on the internet, etc.

While I am a pessimist when it comes to overly-techy stuff and the destruction that AI will wrought upon...the world, I am happy to know there will always be the subculture who wants anything but that.     You could argue, in 2025, the entire tabletop wargaming community is a counter culture of sorts -by all rights we should all be playing games on digital platforms or using virtual reality, etc.

I just believe going forward, digitally sculpted STL's will be "the" mainstream market and method of doing what we used to do with spin-casting in garages, etc.

Myself as a consumer, I sit square in the middle.  I won't support an old manually sculpted line...if the sculpts aren't good, but I also don't have any issue buying well-sculpted stuff, regardless of medium.

(guy who turns off all the apps on his phone and drives a manual transmission car...) 

[Storm Wolf]

Id actually say at the moment there's a real push for physical stuff - as the hobby moves more and more online and so much of the dialogue and community becomes digital, people seem to really want and respond too the oldschool hand made, sold out someone's bag stuff. There's pretty much a whole subculture emerging now that very much wants hand made, hand cast, hand printed creative stuff, the only difference is that the internet is the facilitator of these products.

Yeah old fashioned lead pewter models are the new vinyl, and why not I think the hand sculpted stuff has a certain charm that most 3d printed stuff seems to lack, this is not a hard and fast opinion as I have seen some cracking printed models to, but I still like the older stuff (must be my age )

[Mammoth miniatures]

I just believe going forward, digitally sculpted STL's will be "the" mainstream market and method of doing what we used to do with spin-casting in garages, etc.

Oh absolutely - and from a technical sense it's inevitable I can't outpace a big STL patreon account. There are 3d sculpting teams out there that can have every character from the latest episode of Mandalorian up on their patreon before the episode has even been released - traditional figure sculptors can't compete with that. But with that perhaps comes a shift and appreciation for the craft and skill needed to do things the old way. I know from teaching sculpture that young folk are really keen to gain traditional craft skills - they live in a largely digital world and see anything physical as an escape. Its why D&D is having such a renaissance.


As to the question at hand - I think we'll probably see some companies that have perhaps existed for the last few years in the background suddenly gain a bit of the limelight as their older and more established competitors bow out. there's only so much money to go around in the industry and games workshop gets 99% of it, so as older makers retire the upcoming companies will take their spot. I can think of a few companies that started up as one man hobby projects when I was a teen that now seem to be growing steadily - if not in terms of actual staff and assets then at least in terms of visibility.

My worry to be honest is the opposite issue - that some older companies that make wonderful stuff will get lost and forgotten as the hobby moves to new venues. I know for myself I rarely buy wargames magazines as a consumer and don't advertise in them as a business owner, because Instagram is free and drives far more sales. but there are companies out there that only exist in the bck pages of wargames soldiers and strategy that will simply vanish and be forgotten once they retire.

[Sakuragi Miniatures]

Yeah old fashioned lead pewter models are the new vinyl, and why not I think the hand sculpted stuff has a certain charm that most 3d printed stuff seems to lack, this is not a hard and fast opinion as I have seen some cracking printed models to, but I still like the older stuff (must be my age )

I chose to go with metal minis for my line because there's something about solid metal that says "I am not screwing around. This is serious."

[Sakuragi Miniatures]

Another issue is tax liabilities, at least here in the U.S. My friends and I started First Command Wargames back in 2014. We set it up as a Limited Liability Company (LLC) to minimize any financial risks to us. We didn't expect to make a ton of money, but it would be a fun way to sell our rules sets through print on demand or PDF download. We would fill out our taxes every year and send them in to the IRS. However, the IRS regularly harassed us, saying we owed them lots of money. Even if we had a certified tax attorney fill out our taxes, like clockwork we got a letter saying we owed some phenomenal amount. No matter how many times we paid a tax attorney to supposedly take care of it any problems from the past, the next year we'd get another letter from them saying we owed more than our company could conceivably make in three decades.

We eventually decided to dissolve the LLC and give up.  I would counsel anyone starting a business that if you are not a tax savant yourself, and easily understand tax forms and laws of your country (especially if it is the U.S.), to NOT DO IT!

Sorry for the negativity, but that is an aspect of business or starting a company that some folks may not realize.

Mike Demana

Since its not an LLC, do you just claim it on your taxes? I ask because I'm starting up myself. I've made next to nothing so far and that's far outstripped by what I've invested.