Give me your thoughts on this rules mechanic....

[jon_1066]

Why not give an incentive to move early rather than rush forward?

You could add a reserve move option.  Eg move up to 36” so long as you don’t get within 12” of enemy and haven’t already moved in the battle

[Patrice]

Can they change formation once on the gaming table? In Argad rules, infantry in narrow marching column (or in loose order or open order or per basic rules) may do full, fast movement; but in close order in lines or block (advanced rules) the movement is often more limited. Players often do one or more rapid movements before actually deploying.

[Charlie_]

How big a table/surface are you playing on? Would you wish to downscale the rules to play on a smaller table? If so 18" even for Cavalry is a heck of a distance and will definitely limit tactical options; yep, we are talking about the Late Middle Ages where tactical options were to some degree limited but you do want [players to feel like they're in the game.

Yes, this is key - how big is the table, and how far apart do the armies start.

The table I'm using is 4ft deep, between 8 and 10ft wide. They start 36" apart.

So my distances are actually just 50% than what is/was used in Warhammer (Fantasy or Ancients), when most infantry moved 8", cavalry double that at 16", standard bow shots were usually 24" (there were of course different weapons with longer and shorter ranges), and armies usually started 24" apart. That's three infantry moves distance, or one bowshot. (of course the 8" / 16" move distances were assuming the unit was marching / charging).
What I use is that all increased by 50% - 12" infantry move, 24" cavalry move, 36" long range bowshot.... and most importantly 36" starting distance. So the ratios are all the same.
On a 4ft table this would only give 6" deployment zones if the armies started on table facing each other.... BUT I'm more inclined to have the defender deploy in a 12" zone, and the attacker the table on turn one, which will give that same 36" distance. And by no means are all games basic pitched battles with the two armies lining up against each other.

I agree, 18" potential cavalry move is much more in keeping with convention. 

Yes, I am actually now being persuaded that my cavalry should move 18". So that's 50% further than infantry, rather than double. I think that will work nicely.

You could add a reserve move option.  Eg move up to 36” so long as you don’t get within 12” of enemy and haven’t already moved in the battle

Yes I have been thinking about that too.... not quite sure how I would make it work nice and cleanly yet though, but there may be a way. Something along the lines of you can 'save up' an unused move and then use two in one turn.... maybe?

Can they change formation once on the gaming table? In Argad rules, infantry in narrow marching column (or in loose order or open order or per basic rules) may do full, fast movement; but in close order in lines or block (advanced rules) the movement is often more limited. Players often do one or more rapid movements before actually deploying.

No, the game assumes once they are on the table they have been formed up into their battlelines.
Though troops in column marching along a road or such might appear as a feature of a specific scenario (ambushed whilst on the road for example, they need to pass a test to get out of their marching column and form up to face the enemy).



Thank you for all the input so far, it's all good food for thought, and I'm open to hearing more ideas and musings on the general subject of movement distances on the table!

[jon_1066]

The reserve move works well in Blucher by Sam Mustafa.  If you haven’t moved at all then you can go quite a distance but as soon as you deploy that’s it, no reserve move for you.

Maybe at the start of the battle mark reserve formations with a token, likewise any reinforcement can be marked as it comes on the board.  As soon as the unit acts remove the token - if they move they can get the bonus reserve move but if the shoot or are attacked or anything else they lose it.

[Easy E]

Thanks for the info on table size.  That makes a lot more sense.

[Yarkshire Gamer]

I'm in the minority of one here but what's the rush ?

I'm guessing that everyone who has commented has a "chargy" type army and wants to get into contact as soon as possible. If I had a French HYW army full of Heavy Cavalry I'd want minimal time between deployment and contact, it means I don't get shot !

As a English HYW player I want (and need) time to do the shooty, my strength is in Firepower and defending a stationary position, I want the attacker slowing down, stumbling in mud etc so I can shoot them more.

One interesting mechanic, I've not seen elsewhere is the "Slowing Effect of Fire" in Mortem et Gloriam where volume of accurate missle fire slows down an attackers move.

Just my thoughts, I can see why you want to get to the juicy bit, smashing your opposition on the head with a bed pan, but they might want to shoot you first

Regards Ken
Yarkshire Gamer

[Atheling]

One interesting mechanic, I've not seen elsewhere is the "Slowing Effect of Fire" in Mortem et Gloriam where volume of accurate missle fire slows down an attackers move.

Just my thoughts, I can see why you want to get to the juicy bit, smashing your opposition on the head with a bed pan, but they might want to shoot you first

Nail on the head! This is not just pertinent to the HYW but taking this particular example, there are virtually no rules available which take this into account. OK, there are a few very obscure, and old, sets of rules that require a "flinch test". Incidentally, there is a set of HYW rules under development at the mo' but it would be beyond my jurisdiction to say anything else as I have nothing to do with their development.

It also depends on how granular you want to get. An armour from 1346 (Crecy era) would be not stand up in the slightest compared to an armour from 1415 (Agincourt) and even later 1453 (Castillon era). The effect of massed archery, be it from bows, crossbows (or later) handguns would vary throughout the period we call then Hundred Years War (actually a period of struggles between various political communities and not nations as such)

[jon_1066]

Disorder in Hail Caesar has this effect.

[fred]

Warmaster shooting is primarily about drive backs.

I think many games have the conflict between the static shooty side and the mobile melee side - how many times troops can get shot before contact in the rules vs real world expectations is quite important

[Atheling]

Disorder in Hail Caesar has this effect.

I don't think it quite works in the way; or if it does, in a very, very loose abstract manner which I and many a Late Medieval gamer would be looking for. anyway, I said I wouldn't talk about the potential new rules so I can't really expand upon what i have said already.

Suffice to say, from the latest evidence, if we take 1415 as an instance, longbow archers did not work in the manner in which the romantics tend to believe, it didn't kill advancing knights dead. It did impede their charge and force them to expend energy much better used in melee. Or, with the caveat that I am not an expert, but after 30 years of reading on the subject, this is very much the modern way to view the effect of longbow.

Incidentally, there are some very intricate and interesting videos on YouTube, provided by armour expert Tobias Capwell and Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries in 2011, that elucidate my point. I can provide links if you please?

[Patrice]

Lots of arrows certainly cause disorder, some riders fall and those behind are hampered by this. Do the others slow down?
Perhaps some would try to avoid riding directly at the archers (at least, 15th C. artillery had such effect) but many would try to go faster?
Which gives them no advantage in the melee, as they would arrive in disorder (I mean, more disorder than intended) but not slowed.

[Elbows]

I find missile units also remove the opponent's ability to control the flow of the fight.  If you're all melee with little missile capacity, you will just advance in relatively good order, at your leisure with more time/control over how to meet the contact.

When you're being pelted by missile fire, you are sometimes forced to move faster, act sooner, etc. 

[Yarkshire Gamer]

Lots of arrows certainly cause disorder, some riders fall and those behind are hampered by this. Do the others slow down?
Perhaps some would try to avoid riding directly at the archers (at least, 15th C. artillery had such effect) but many would try to go faster?
Which gives them no advantage in the melee, as they would arrive in disorder (I mean, more disorder than intended) but not slowed.

You can also shoot at infantry

[Atheling]

You can also shoot at infantry

Indeed. The tests I mentioned above were done against an infantry "dummy". 

i'm certain Patrice knows, the cavalry charges

Also, as I'm certain Patrice knows, the cavalry charges in the early HYW were quickly leaned from and became a smaller event if needed in battle than seen at Crecy for example.

[jon_1066]

I don't think it quite works in the way; or if it does, in a very, very loose abstract manner which I and many a Late Medieval gamer would be looking for. anyway...

I'm not sure what you mean but just in case you are unfamiliar with Hail Caesar mechanics.  A roll of 6 to hit on shooting causes a break test in the effected unit (even if no casualties are scored), the result of which could be anything from crack right on to flee but in the middle are results of halt in disorder and withdraw in disorder.  Disorder in HC means you can't be ordered on your next turn, so the unit can only recover it's disorder and not move.  Which potentially leaves it sitting in bow range.  In effect the arrows can cause the unit to stall for a turn.