The Grand Master

[Atelier Robin]

I cannot remember if I have posted this fellow here before, if I have sorry. Ulrich von Jungingen, Grandmaster of the Ordenstaat killed 15 July 1410. and (dear God!!) I have a blog https://atelierrobin.wordpress.com where I talk about the Teutonic Knights and how they are sorely misunderstood by the poor level of 'wargame research'. It has stalled a bit of late (only on episode 3 of the new era) but I should be back too it soon.

Sorry if this is taking up the airways again.

Rob

[Freddy]

Great looking model!

[Atheling]

Lovely stuff and I quite agree: extraordinary helm accoutrements and the Ordenstaat/Teutonic Order/Order of Brothers of the German House of Saint Mary in Jerusalem banning the use of heraldry for their soldiery.

I do feel compelled to say that it was I who painted the Gripping Beast 13th CE Teutonic Order stuff up (to their instruction)

[redrevuk]

Hear, hear! Really good to see some informed commentary. Many current Teutonic Knights in 28mm owe more to GW Chaos Warriors (which I like and have their place) than to their historical inspiration.

What are your thoughts on whether visiting German knights wore crests? I'm thinking those were more for the tournament field.

[Atheling]

Hear, hear! Really good to see some informed commentary. Many current Teutonic Knights in 28mm owe more to GW Chaos Warriors (which I like and have their place) than to their historical inspiration.[.quote]

For example?

What are your thoughts on whether visiting German knights wore crests? I'm thinking those were more for the tournament field.

Very unlikely to have been worn in battle. The last thing you need is a wooden prop on ones head whilest trying to fight!

[redrevuk]

In terms of basic design elements for the C13th, the combo of knight plus cloak (preferably all fur or fur-trim) plus horns/crest. Combined to make for a bulkier look than a western European knight of the same period. Accentuated if equipped with two-handed weapons and a suitably nonchalant pose that says "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" (eg: GB or, I think, Crusader?). Arguably there's a bit of circular inspiration going on in terms of aesthetics - in the Warhammer Old World the Chaos wastes sit north of roughly where the Baltic states would be. Granted, GW's models are all in plate, but Teutonic knights are invariably depicted in model form as spikier and chunkier than the regular knight... I thought the OP's blog comment on designers referencing one another to create a generally recognised (if ahistorical) visual profile was spot on. You could probably recognise a TK model by silhouette alone, so making for strong faction recognition and cool factor. I'm not seeking to be critical - they're your toys, play how you like - just interested in how gaming culture sometimes works. I now have to decide whether to stick with the helms, cloaks and barding for my Ordenstaat Saga army or tone down. Personally I quite like the idea of my most elite unit being the least visually imposing on the table.

[Atheling]

In terms of basic design elements for the C13th, the combo of knight plus cloak (preferably all fur or fur-trim) plus horns/crest. Combined to make for a bulkier look than a western European knight of the same period. Accentuated if equipped with two-handed weapons and a suitably nonchalant pose that says "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" (eg: GB or, I think, Crusader?). Arguably there's a bit of circular inspiration going on in terms of aesthetics - in the Warhammer Old World the Chaos wastes sit north of roughly where the Baltic states would be. Granted, GW's models are all in plate, but Teutonic knights are invariably depicted in model form as spikier and chunkier than the regular knight... I thought the OP's blog comment on designers referencing one another to create a generally recognised (if ahistorical) visual profile was spot on. You could probably recognise a TK model by silhouette alone, so making for strong faction recognition and cool factor. I'm not seeking to be critical - they're your toys, play how you like - just interested in how gaming culture sometimes works. I now have to decide whether to stick with the helms, cloaks and barding for my Ordenstaat Saga army or tone down. Personally I quite like the idea of my most elite unit being the least visually imposing on the table.

Ah, I was hoping for sources as (as referenced in my last post) the extraordinary helm heraldic crests being worn in battle are bugbear of mine also. Certainly, going back to the WRG book, Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 (CE) their is a representation of a Teutonic Knight, battle ready, with no such accouterments. (Please see page 115, WRG book, Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300, illustration 105).

[redrevuk]

Ah, I was hoping for sources as (as referenced in my last post) the extraordinary helm heraldic crests being worn in battle are bugbear of mine also. Certainly, going back to the WRG book, Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 (CE) their is a representation of a Teutonic Knight, battle ready, with no such accouterments. (Please see page 115, WRG book, Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300, illustration 105).

Ah! Sorry, not much to offer there. I have also struggled with sources, I suppose one could draw analogies with the Templars and Hospitallers? I find that there is also a dearth of visual reference for the Teutonics' Estonian, Lithuanian and Semigallian opponents, leaving a similar void for figure designers to imagine into. And I'm currently having the same trouble with C13th Welsh, where the same two or three manuscript marginalia and a couple of references from Gerald of Wales are always cited as totally representative of Welsh warriors in general... But I will keep searching!

[Atheling]

Ah! Sorry, not much to offer there. I have also struggled with sources, I suppose one could draw analogies with the Templars and Hospitallers? I find that there is also a dearth of visual reference for the Teutonics' Estonian, Lithuanian and Semigallian opponents, leaving a similar void for figure designers to imagine into. And I'm currently having the same trouble with C13th Welsh, where the same two or three manuscript marginalia and a couple of references from Gerald of Wales are always cited as totally representative of Welsh warriors in general... But I will keep searching!

The man to ask re: 14th CE Welsh warfare is Rob Jones of Blood and Horse Droppings and Écorcheurs fame:
https://www.historianinharness.co.uk/contact