Understanding the Old World setting - when did it go south for you?

[anevilgiraffe]

I don't know when it happened, but when Norsca became all chaos was stupid, you have instances of Norsca all over the place, Lustria and as ships pilots in the whatever the Med is in Warhammer, all now chaos tainted and yet tolerated by these nations that otherwise are at war with chaos.

[President Buer]

To me Warhammer's setting faltered at the same point as a lot of other fantasy and sci-fi settings - when they start trying to cover as much as possible on their map with lords, uniforms, and the current military/political situation explained in detail. It's far better to mostly keep the stories low level and let the players' and readers' imaginations fill in the blanks - which will naturally lead to less things they will find unappealing and gives them the room to be the chief creative force behind their hobby projects. There should still be enough to bite on for those wanting to follow existing stories, but just not to the level where painting your dudes the wrong colours is chafing with the official lore.

When they started to go way too crapsack was my main turn off with 40k and it seems WFB went that way towards the end. We see that issue forming into Trench Crusade and the other purely grimdark settings where it's just heaps of depressiveness and nothing positive to contrast it with. It all becomes less of a setting and more of a misery porn aesthetic.

[snitcythedog]

To me Warhammer's setting faltered at the same point as a lot of other fantasy and sci-fi settings - when they start trying to cover as much as possible on their map with lords, uniforms, and the current military/political situation explained in detail. It's far better to mostly keep the stories low level and let the players' and readers' imaginations fill in the blanks - which will naturally lead to less things they will find unappealing and gives them the room to be the chief creative force behind their hobby projects. There should still be enough to bite on for those wanting to follow existing stories, but just not to the level where painting your dudes the wrong colours is chafing with the official lore.

When they started to go way too crapsack was my main turn off with 40k and it seems WFB went that way towards the end. We see that issue forming into Trench Crusade and the other purely grimdark settings where it's just heaps of depressiveness and nothing positive to contrast it with. It all becomes less of a setting and more of a misery porn aesthetic.

Much of this. 
My main complaint about GW design is that they narrowed the universe so much by trying to codify every little thing.  Open systems allow for imagination and enjoyable play.  Closed systems, to me, are like banging your head on the same wall over and over. 

[Freddy]

My main complaint about GW design is that they narrowed the universe so much by trying to codify every little thing.  Open systems allow for imagination and enjoyable play.  Closed systems, to me, are like banging your head on the same wall over and over.

The problem is two-fold
-they have to codify everything to be able to trademark it. I do not like it, but somewhere deep inside I kinda understand it, there are a lot of stowaways living off on their IPs.
-the show MUST go on- whether it really NEEDS to or not. The best example is from 40k: Necrons. They were the mysterious race, but they could not left like that so that when their range was expanded all the new stuff needed explanation and now instead of the juicy mysterious unknown we have a pretty mediocre story and have to be happy about it

But if you have imagination, you can build up your own fantasy world, regardless what the big evil company wants. A bad turn of the background story (like the introduction of AoS) can kill the mood, yes. But ,,too much official background story" really should not be an issue to use your own fantasy..

[punkrabbitt]

I started with WFB 3rd edition and excitedly built a 2,000 point Slann army... about a year after I finished it, 4th was released and there was no room for my army. Same thing happened with my Squats with 40k 3rd...

[Tactalvanic]

Trying to understand the old world setting, to my mind, is a bit of a waste.

I have dabbled with say Island of blood, more for the miniatures, but at the end of the day the hardback WHFB on the shelf for reference and use is 3rd edition, wort's and all, good enough.

Alongside WHFRP of the same era.

I am not interested in tournament or constant keepy uppy with latest releases... I eclectically collect what I like/piques my interest.

Its like asking which Doctor is yours?

Some of it you like, some you don't etc.

As with other fantasy/sci-fi genres , I take/use what is needed from it, enjoy it, have fun, and I save my limited understanding for more important things ?

[HerbertTarkel]

Trying to understand the old world setting, to my mind, is a bit of a waste.

I have dabbled with say Island of blood, more for the miniatures, but at the end of the day the hardback WHFB on the shelf for reference and use is 3rd edition, wort's and all, good enough.

Alongside WHFRP of the same era.

I am not interested in tournament or constant keepy uppy with latest releases... I eclectically collect what I like/piques my interest.

Its like asking which Doctor is yours?

Some of it you like, some you don't etc.

As with other fantasy/sci-fi genres , I take/use what is needed from it, enjoy it, have fun, and I save my limited understanding for more important things ?

Well, obviously the fourth doctor, the VERY BEST one 

[Ozreth]

Trying to understand the old world setting, to my mind, is a bit of a waste.

I have dabbled with say Island of blood, more for the miniatures, but at the end of the day the hardback WHFB on the shelf for reference and use is 3rd edition, wort's and all, good enough.

Alongside WHFRP of the same era.

Is WHFB 3rd before or after they started marketing their own miniatures for the game? Before tournaments?

[Rick]

Is WHFB 3rd before or after they started marketing their own miniatures for the game? Before tournaments?

Erm, I don't quite understand your point there. Citadel/Games Workshop produced a whole load of ranges of fantasy miniatures - Warhammer were the rules they created to get you to buy more of their figures, entire armies worth.
3rd edition (I think I've got the mrb and the WFRP book around as well) really was the last 'fun' edition; 2nd brought in all the bad puns and silly jokes; the slapstick hysterical humour if you will, but 3rd brought in a solid core of rules - 3 hardback books: the rules, the armies and the siege, which were a fun yet solid set (well, apart from siege, that was just because GW had brought out a multipart castle model in expanded polystyrene I think).

[Tactalvanic]

Well, obviously the fourth doctor, the VERY BEST one 

Indeed, this is the correct answer 

I was watching a bit of the 4th last night in fact.

Is WHFB 3rd before or after they started marketing their own miniatures for the game? Before tournaments?

+1 what Rick said, your probably thinking along the lines of them moving slowly into plastic production, I think a little later, but they produced plenty of good solid metal for armies prior to that.
 
Basically moving from role players to include mass wargamers, to shift more stuff.

But yes Third is very much an old sweet spot of younger years, and a little bit of silliness.

[Cubs]

After 1991, 3rd Edition. When Ian Livingston, Steve Jackson and Bryan Ansell sold Games Workshop, it became something entirely different whilst wearing the same name.

It is no surprise that so many people regard 3rd edition as the high point of WHFB, because after that you have Tom Kirby, criticised for trying to squeeze every dollar out of the franchise, without the love of the previous owners for their own creation. It was under his leadership that GW started to crack down on tightening the IP, whilst previously GW had encouraged collectors to use whatever models they had.

[Pictors Studio]

I never got too much into the background of the Old World when I started playing in 5th edition.  It was more of a system we used to play our own fantasy games, often set in a world like Elric's The Young Kingdoms. 

When Warmaster came out I really liked that system and did have more of an Old World setting to our game but hadn't read too much of it still. 

When 6th came out I read more of the army books and still wasn't too keen on the setting.  It was a little magic heavy for me and had too many warmachine type things that I didn't like.  It was in that edition that we started playing games set in the Old World though and had a number of armies to play. 

I got more and more into historicals soon after that and pretty much abandoned GW altogether in about 2005. Not that I didn't play the odd game here and there. 

In 2015 when AoS came out I was intrigued.  Here was a game where you could use fantasy armies to play games on terrain that wasn't just historical terrain with a fantasy twist. 

The rules were simple and the games were based on narrative scenarios instead of points.  I loved it!  The setting was fresh too and had a lot of places to go.  Post-apocalypse fantasy was how I described it.  Armies of almost robot-like angels smitting their chaos foes and pushing into the realms to reconquer them in the name of Sigmar.

I couldn't wait to see what they did. 

I wanted to see new human armies that were more primitive than the Empire and Brettonia.  See more and different types of the other races.

I got the latter.  The dwaf Fyreslayers weren't exactly my cup of tea, but they certainly leaned into something different there and went in whole hog. 

The Chaos stuff was awesome.  Then they released the Cities of Sigmar faction and I found out that they were going to be just doing the same old thing with the humans.  In 1000's, maybe 10s of thousands of years, it turns out even the fashion hadn't changed.  Still slashed doublets.

The setting became something that was just another fantasy world with cities where humans and elves and dwarfs and evil elves and on and on just got along together more or less. 

The robot-like storm cast became characters and had personalities and there was even flesh under the armour.

I felt like they had lost the thread.  It lost a lot of the desperation that it seemed like it had when it started.

Then the rules got more complicated and I just lost the narrative entirely.  From being the game that got me back into GW entirely (and very deeply) I don't play AoS at all anymore. 

[Basementboy]

I think around the mid-2000s is when the Old World started to go downhill- the aesthetic changes of the course of the noughties from a basically historical one to a much more easily IP-able one that just doesn't scratch the same itch.
Prior to that there's a lot of changes too of course, but I find something to love in most of the different versions of Warhammer- I love Mordheim for the character building elements, 6th Edition for the huge rank and flank fun, and 3rd Edition for the totally wacky fun- and of course the (fantastic) Realms of Chaos books that emerged during that era.
But I'm a young 'un who got into Warhammer Fantasy after it had been discontinued so my opinion shouldn't carry much too weight

[Lost Egg]

After 1991, 3rd Edition. When Ian Livingston, Steve Jackson and Bryan Ansell sold Games Workshop, it became something entirely different whilst wearing the same name.

It is no surprise that so many people regard 3rd edition as the high point of WHFB, because after that you have Tom Kirby, criticised for trying to squeeze every dollar out of the franchise, without the love of the previous owners for their own creation. It was under his leadership that GW started to crack down on tightening the IP, whilst previously GW had encouraged collectors to use whatever models they had.

I think I'd have to agree with Cubs.

I got into GW before the sale but it was a year or two before I actually started to game, having collected only the odd few minis here and there as I couldn't afford much more. I played Battle Manual 40k and some Advanced HeroQuest for a year or two then the sale happened. My enjoyment of 2nd Ed 40k and 4th Ed WFB kinda rode on the coat tails of what had been but it became quickly apparent to me that something was off. With the arrival of plastic kits I got into kit bashing and that became the hobby for me but GW now seems hell-bent on abandoning that part of the hobby too now.

[Freddy]

After 1991, 3rd Edition. When Ian Livingston, Steve Jackson and Bryan Ansell sold Games Workshop, it became something entirely different whilst wearing the same name.

It is no surprise that so many people regard 3rd edition as the high point of WHFB, because after that you have Tom Kirby, criticised for trying to squeeze every dollar out of the franchise, without the love of the previous owners for their own creation. It was under his leadership that GW started to crack down on tightening the IP, whilst previously GW had encouraged collectors to use whatever models they had.

In 1994 GW went to the stock market, from then on it got big money for development, but in return, it had to make profit for the shareholders. Also be able to demonstrate that they do not waste the money.
Encouraging collectors to use their own models was joy and fun until it was about 2-3 small companies with almost underground distribution channels versus the GW stores, but from the mid2000s internet and webshops became a thing and suddenly the concurrency made up the advantages GW had on marketing, distribution and target group reach (also causing a huge boom on miniature manufacturers). The world changed a lot regarding this type of generosity, GW had to adapt before they find themselves writing rules and flavor text for someone else's models.

...not that I like it, but it all happened for a reason.