Understanding the Old World setting - when did it go south for you?

[March Hare]

As a low fantasy fan, I don't know if it ever went south as much as it always had a lost opportunity feel to it. Could have been so rich and instead you get the typical fantasy "you want X you got X." Not saying that is bad, just not my thing. The Old World just doubled down on that. If you understand where I am coming from you can imagine how my heart sunk when the starter set was revealed as Bretonnians and Tomb Kings of all things.

[Cubs]

Yes, yes, money is eeeeeeevil, but you can not feed kids or buy houses with "having fun". So either sell out or put the fun on backburner (which does not mean to end it- just spend less energy on it). And yes, there are some lucky ones, who manage to find a golden path where they make a living while not selling out. All three exist, but the ratio is roughly about 65-30-5%.

Well, I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone who left a high paying, soulless job selling finance to pursue a lower paying job that actually feels worthwhile. My mental health was shredded, my marriage was under strain and it took a breakdown to realise that chasing the buck isn't worth it in the end. I make enough money to pay the bills and I'm a better husband and father than I would have been otherwise. I have time, real quality time, and I have what so many others seem to break themselves striving for ... enough.

When GW chased the buck to the extreme, that was when it went south for me because it lost something, and apparently the same is true of the majority of the posters. I get that others have a different perspective because they came into the hobby at a different time, or wanted something different out of it.

 

[Freddy]

Well, I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone who left a high paying, soulless job selling finance to pursue a lower paying job that actually feels worthwhile. My mental health was shredded, my marriage was under strain and it took a breakdown to realise that chasing the buck isn't worth it in the end. I make enough money to pay the bills and I'm a better husband and father than I would have been otherwise. I have time, real quality time, and I have what so many others seem to break themselves striving for ... enough.

What I wrote above is based on my observations, necessarily based on my surroundings- not just about "creator" hobby people but folks like fantasy book writers and shop owners too. ,,Taking a job" it is also not necessarily coal mining or overworked office biorobot; creative folks can work as illustrators, writers and shop owners simply turn towards better paying merchandise. But every life is different, if you managed to find something fun enough an good paying enough, and your family supports your choice, consider yourself among the (lucky) few.

For me job and hobby was always two different things, my job is far from wargaming, but it is kinda cool, so I do not have to spend my work time daydreaming about quitting and living of my hobby. In fact I tried contract painting once, and it was horrible, the pressure of fulfilment and the due date killed all the fun in it. But again, this is a matter of personal taste.

[punkrabbitt]

In fact I tried contract painting once, and it was horrible, the pressure of fulfilment and the due date killed all the fun in it. But again, this is a matter of personal taste.

That was my experience too!

[peleset]

It started going south when it stopped being funny, not using Gary Chalk didn't help either.



I've still got me badge and I even bave regular like.

[Elbows]

I'm definitely of the opposite bent.  I like the kind of foreboding "Grimm's Fairy Tale" approach to low fantasy.

I don't think this has ever really been the case for Warhammer Fantasy, but in my head the setting is.  From what I saw in white dwarf it kind of went from whimsical directly to ultra-over-the-top-grimdark, and then to bizarro world AoS.

I always enjoyed the concept that most of the Empire existed in "relative" peace, and most people didn't even believe beastmen, orcs or Chaos existed (even if their uncle died in the dark forest 12 years ago under mysterious circumstances, etc.).  I like the idea that the Empire is filled with guys who have seen these evils, and few people believe they exist unless they've served in the army and fought these creatures, etc.

In the tech level of any medieval setting, I figured you're still in the area of human history (equivalent) where almost no people alive ever wandered more than 50 miles from where they were born, unless they were traders or seafarers, etc.  I figure most villages exist without interacting with creatures except once in a blue moon. The idea that an average hamlet/village was raided by a dozen goblins 30 years ago, but only the old people remember, and the younger folks think they're probably making it up, etc. (until it happens again).

I like the idea that deep forests (read: most of the Empire) is still a place of foreboding and you don't risk it after dark, etc.  There's maybe one trader in the village who has been the very edge of the dark lands and lived to tell about it, etc.

Now, that whole concept doesn't work with a lot of the Warhammer fantasy world (particularly since the Empire/Tilea, etc. exist in an 'Italian Wars' era instead of the more feudal/medieval Bretonnian era, etc. etc. etc.).  I've always been more fascinated by the grey-haired grumpy Empire spearman who's eating mutton stew before going off into the dark woods to likely die to a random Beastman, and that's just his lot in life.

I love the idea of a traveling caravan arriving with stories of Araby, Tilea, the Wood Elf realm, or the Chaos Wastes...or someone who's ventured (and survived) exploring abandoned Dwarf halls and stealing treasure from goblins.  These being the exception to the normal rule of simple farmers, tradesmen, etc.

[HerbertTarkel]

I'm definitely of the opposite bent.  I like the kind of foreboding "Grimm's Fairy Tale" approach to low fantasy.

I don't think this has ever really been the case for Warhammer Fantasy, but in my head the setting is.  From what I saw in white dwarf it kind of went from whimsical directly to ultra-over-the-top-grimdark, and then to bizarro world AoS.

I think that’s a good summary of the life of Warhammer actually. Heavy emphasis on bizarro AoS, for me.

[v_lazy_dragon]

I'm definitely of the opposite bent.  I like the kind of foreboding "Grimm's Fairy Tale" approach to low fantasy.

I don't think this has ever really been the case for Warhammer Fantasy, but in my head the setting is.  From what I saw in white dwarf it kind of went from whimsical directly to ultra-over-the-top-grimdark, and then to bizarro world AoS.

I always enjoyed the concept that most of the Empire existed in "relative" peace, and most people didn't even believe beastmen, orcs or Chaos existed (even if their uncle died in the dark forest 12 years ago under mysterious circumstances, etc.).  I like the idea that the Empire is filled with guys who have seen these evils, and few people believe they exist unless they've served in the army and fought these creatures, etc.

In the tech level of any medieval setting, I figured you're still in the area of human history (equivalent) where almost no people alive ever wandered more than 50 miles from where they were born, unless they were traders or seafarers, etc.  I figure most villages exist without interacting with creatures except once in a blue moon. The idea that an average hamlet/village was raided by a dozen goblins 30 years ago, but only the old people remember, and the younger folks think they're probably making it up, etc. (until it happens again).

I like the idea that deep forests (read: most of the Empire) is still a place of foreboding and you don't risk it after dark, etc.  There's maybe one trader in the village who has been the very edge of the dark lands and lived to tell about it, etc.

Now, that whole concept doesn't work with a lot of the Warhammer fantasy world (particularly since the Empire/Tilea, etc. exist in an 'Italian Wars' era instead of the more feudal/medieval Bretonnian era, etc. etc. etc.).  I've always been more fascinated by the grey-haired grumpy Empire spearman who's eating mutton stew before going off into the dark woods to likely die to a random Beastman, and that's just his lot in life.

I love the idea of a traveling caravan arriving with stories of Araby, Tilea, the Wood Elf realm, or the Chaos Wastes...or someone who's ventured (and survived) exploring abandoned Dwarf halls and stealing treasure from goblins.  These being the exception to the normal rule of simple farmers, tradesmen, etc.

^This entire post sums up my feelings perfectly. It's also the feel of the world that some of the early Gotrek & Felix novels have - there are dark things in the woods (or in the sewers), but the average citizen doesn't necessarily interact with them

[Rick]

I'm definitely of the opposite bent.  I like the kind of foreboding "Grimm's Fairy Tale" approach to low fantasy.

I don't think this has ever really been the case for Warhammer Fantasy, but in my head the setting is.  From what I saw in white dwarf it kind of went from whimsical directly to ultra-over-the-top-grimdark, and then to bizarro world AoS.

I always enjoyed the concept that most of the Empire existed in "relative" peace, and most people didn't even believe beastmen, orcs or Chaos existed (even if their uncle died in the dark forest 12 years ago under mysterious circumstances, etc.).  I like the idea that the Empire is filled with guys who have seen these evils, and few people believe they exist unless they've served in the army and fought these creatures, etc.

In the tech level of any medieval setting, I figured you're still in the area of human history (equivalent) where almost no people alive ever wandered more than 50 miles from where they were born, unless they were traders or seafarers, etc.  I figure most villages exist without interacting with creatures except once in a blue moon. The idea that an average hamlet/village was raided by a dozen goblins 30 years ago, but only the old people remember, and the younger folks think they're probably making it up, etc. (until it happens again).

I like the idea that deep forests (read: most of the Empire) is still a place of foreboding and you don't risk it after dark, etc.  There's maybe one trader in the village who has been the very edge of the dark lands and lived to tell about it, etc.

Now, that whole concept doesn't work with a lot of the Warhammer fantasy world (particularly since the Empire/Tilea, etc. exist in an 'Italian Wars' era instead of the more feudal/medieval Bretonnian era, etc. etc. etc.).  I've always been more fascinated by the grey-haired grumpy Empire spearman who's eating mutton stew before going off into the dark woods to likely die to a random Beastman, and that's just his lot in life.

I love the idea of a traveling caravan arriving with stories of Araby, Tilea, the Wood Elf realm, or the Chaos Wastes...or someone who's ventured (and survived) exploring abandoned Dwarf halls and stealing treasure from goblins.  These being the exception to the normal rule of simple farmers, tradesmen, etc.

That's pretty much what the rpg, Warhammer Fantasy Role Play, worked with as the setting - the players being some of the ones 'in the know' and fighting the monsters and demons that most people didn't care to know about. Warhammer Battle diverged from this setting; armies of whatever monstrous beasts tramped all over the world looking for a fight, becoming less fun and more weird if you were aware of the previous background, as well as the cycle of overpowering, then nerfing, the favourite/least favourite armies. Whether this was because of GW going in a different direction or whether GW had just invented Warhammer competition gaming (later 40k and Blood Bowl competitions as well) I'm not sure - they seemed to happen around the same time.

[Hobgoblin]

That's pretty much what the rpg, Warhammer Fantasy Role Play, worked with as the setting - the players being some of the ones 'in the know' and fighting the monsters and demons that most people didn't care to know about. Warhammer Battle diverged from this setting; armies of whatever monstrous beasts tramped all over the world looking for a fight, becoming less fun and more weird if you were aware of the previous background, as well as the cycle of overpowering, then nerfing, the favourite/least favourite armies.

Yes, exactly; and there's also a more satisfying 'limited palette' of monsters in the WFRP version of the Old World: principally chaos creatures like mutants, beastmen and Skaven. Yes, the WFRP bestiary and some scenarios featured goblins and hobgoblins or whatever, but the emphasis was on cultists, sinister things half-glimpsed in woods and scurrying entities in the sewers.

That limited palette would later be echoed by Mordheim, where, in the original set, the only monsters were undead, Skaven, mutants, the Possessed and beastmen. Oh, and ogres - but they always seemed part of the human family, somehow.

It's fair to say that the earlier WFB assumed setting was just as colourful, if not as garish, as the later ones, with red goblins, great goblins, Slann, Amazons and fishmen, as well as rampaging armies of black orcs and so on. But the 'limited palette' bestiary of WFRP and Mordheim does seem the finest expression of the Old World to me.

[Lost Egg]

Yes, exactly; and there's also a more satisfying 'limited palette' of monsters in the WFRP version of the Old World: principally chaos creatures like mutants, beastmen and Skaven. Yes, the WFRP bestiary and some scenarios featured goblins and hobgoblins or whatever, but the emphasis was on cultists, sinister things half-glimpsed in woods and scurrying entities in the sewers.

That limited palette would later be echoed by Mordheim, where, in the original set, the only monsters were undead, Skaven, mutants, the Possessed and beastmen. Oh, and ogres - but they always seemed part of the human family, somehow.

It's fair to say that the earlier WFB assumed setting was just as colourful, if not as garish, as the later ones, with red goblins, great goblins, Slann, Amazons and fishmen, as well as rampaging armies of black orcs and so on. But the 'limited palette' bestiary of WFRP and Mordheim does seem the finest expression of the Old World to me.

I've not really thought of it like that before but I think you're right Hobgoblin.

Chaos quickly lost its edge as all the demons became categorised and even ended up with banners and musicians...

[HerbertTarkel]

Who doesn’t like a Nurgle horn blowing? 

[Storm Wolf]

Who doesn’t like a Nurgle horn blowing? 

 

[Lost Egg]

Imagine the spittle from that thing... yuk!

[Rick]

Who doesn’t like a Nurgle horn blowing? 

Eww. Is that a euphemism? That's disgustin' that is.