Understanding the Old World setting - when did it go south for you?

[Citizen Sade]

Not to mention Emperor Karl Franz, named after the Hapsburg ruler of of the Austria-Hungarian Empire! 

I'm reminded of a quote attributed to James Nicoll: "We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

With that in mind, let's throw Altdorf and Marienburg - both real world places - into the mix.

[Rick]

The idea of chaos and the chaos gods was borrowed completely from Michael Moorcock (although they did use different names for the gods, borrowing Nurgle from Mesopotamia, Slaanesh and Tzeentch being made up, unsure where Khorne came from). The original idea of the gods of law opposing the gods of chaos (pure Moorcock) was dropped in favour of just the 5 chaos gods (yes 5 - Malal was dropped soon afterwards).
I don't think it's terribly unfair to say that the Warhammer lore was a hodge-podge of borrowed ideas that they spent years hammering into some sort of rough shape, then spent even more years hammering it back out of shape again! 

[Simlasa]

I definitely prefer earlier versions of the setting.
Generally I prefer things more subtle... less OTT... and slightly more in line with the RPG version (since that's what I engaged with first). So fewer giant monsters and warmachines, I'm not sure Skaven should even be in massed battles.
As things went on, and EVERYTHING got bigger and wilder... the Emperor on a griffon and such... too bright colors... I just stopped paying attention and stuck to my own notions/preferences.

[Tactalvanic]

And thats the break point, as has been mentioned, they borrowed stuff - fine - bashed it together into a fun fantasyscape for customers to imagine into and by their stuff to represent stuff in it.

Then - they defined and named all the characters you should use all the time, so everyone has the same generals etc.

Then they kept changing it to frequently and finally, destroyed it all in a cataclysmic blah blah so they could properly copyright, all the stuff they borrowed under new names..

ANd finally, have brought back the old world in a new way, so that its borrowed from themselves instead of other sources and copyright/protected it...good long term planning.

I still sticking with 3rd edition 

I can afford that.

[Frugalmax]

... unsure where Khorne came from...

A large grain native to the Americas that unleashes chaos on the digestive tract? sorry, I'll see myself out...

[Rick]

A large grain native to the Americas that unleashes chaos on the digestive tract? sorry, I'll see myself out...

That's quite a-maize-ing. I was thinking it might have been a brand name for fake meat products, which might account for his followers being so aggressive and going beserk! 

[Freddy]

Is it? How so?

Besides being about religious fanatics fighting against literal hell creatures in a ww1 like endless war with modern weapons but with strong medieval vibes? Dunno... 

That and the weirdoes who thought that the Imperium were the good guys.

There are 3 levels of perceiving 40k lore
Kid: "Yay, Imerium is the good guys!"
Edgy teen: "Yuck, Imperium is evil."
Adult: "Imperium is us. With all of our flaws, which is quite often ugly. But still, it is us. You wanted a dramatic conflict, so here it is."

With that in mind, let's throw Altdorf and Marienburg - both real world places - into the mix.

There was that guy a few days ago, who wanted to make his own aeww2 setting, and folks asked him why the real stuff is not interesting enough. I wanted to share there, but maybe here it is also ontopic: when people want fantasy, they never mean real fantasy like Salvador Dalí on the 60 days psychotic mushrooms-only diet fantasy. They always want a mix of real word stuff AND fantasy. So you can have 1000 pages fantasy XXth century lore, but I bet that on the second page there will already be a Stahlhelm wearing bloke called Hans-Jürgen. Similarly, i've never seen a fantasy world without vikings, fachwerkhaus Hansa merchant cities and Far Eastern dudes with dragons.

[Neldoreth]

Clichea, yes very apt here.

[Rick]

Freddy - I remember that conversation, I got the impression he wanted something like 40k dressed up in ww2 clothing!

As to a fantasy world bereft of those clichés you mention, have you ever visited Anyaral, the world of Twilight?

[Cubs]

40k lore is littered with obscure references which could be described as 'schoolboy humour'

I painted the original 'Tragedy of McDeath' mins for Richard Hale a few years back and the weak puns had me face-palming on a regular basis. The Treeman named Clinty, who of course lives in ... Clinty's Wood. The Knight named Dart of Harkness, Lady McDeath's Chaos Hound named ... Spot ("Out, damned Spot!"), the clan McArno ... it goes on. They were having fun.

Malal was dropped soon afterwards).

That's what Malal wants everyone to think ... their time cometh ...

[pixelgeek]

Besides being about religious fanatics fighting against literal hell creatures in a ww1 like endless war with modern weapons but with strong medieval vibes?

The daemons in 40K aren't "literal hell creatures", there aren't really any modern weapons in Trench ZCrusade (the best anti-tank weapon in the game is a two-handed sword) and I wouldn't really describe 40K as having a WW1 vibe with the exception of the Death Korps.

I think you may be using the term 'rip-off' a bit loosely. Have you actually looked at Trench Crusade?

[Rick]

Oh dear. Trench Crusade isn't really a 'rip-off' as such, it's more of an homage to the way 40k is often portrayed, especially the Imperial Guard. After all, read some of the books - the Ciaphas Cain or First and Only series and what do the Guard do when facing an enemy advance? They dig trenches! The vehicles and the formations are very reminiscent of those in WW1 wargame rules (the GW historical 'The Great War' could've been used as a straight-up Imperial Guard game with few modifications, other than the names). Freddy isn't criticising Trench Crusade so much as 40k - after all, that's where the term 'trench crusade' originally comes from! 
There are some truly original game systems out there, often with great backgrounds that owe little, if anything, to historical rw settings. Warhammer and it's derivatives have never been among them - they grab background ideas from all over and, as long as you don't look to closely, it seems to work (well, GW are making a mint out of it). 

[Freddy]

The daemons in 40K aren't "literal hell creatures"

They came from the warp, the dimension of lost souls and hungering gods. And their imagery (visual, conceptual and in the world itself) is based on medieval devil pictures. Besides that, they have nothing to do with hell 

there aren't really any modern weapons in Trench ZCrusade

You really missed the part with the rocket propelled grenades and mech armoured infantry, didn't you?

(the best anti-tank weapon in the game is a two-handed sword)

Opening tanks with magical swords is totally not something we ever saw in 40k, yes In my warband the best weapons against heavy armor are sachtel charges and machine guns btw.

Have you actually looked at Trench Crusade?

I have a thread about it here, I am actually playing 2 TC campaigns at once. I not just know it very closely, but I also enjoy it very much. But I rest my case, Trench Crusade was conceived by someone who apparently slept a lot with IA5 Siege of Vraks under his pillow.

[Freddy]

Freddy isn't criticising Trench Crusade so much as 40k - after all, that's where the term 'trench crusade' originally comes from! 

Trench Crusade ,,borrows" from 40k, but it borrows its best moments 40k itself starts to forget. Yes, this is a criticism as much against 40k as against TC.

There are some truly original game systems out there, often with great backgrounds that owe little, if anything, to historical rw settings. Warhammer and it's derivatives have never been among them - they grab background ideas from all over and, as long as you don't look to closely, it seems to work (well, GW are making a mint out of it). 

40k itself is based on scrap heap of stolen ideas, no doubt. But these ideas were melted and forged into something really unique and characteristic. I really like what 40k is- too bad that it started to turn into something different.

[Funkmachine7]

When it stopped being a setting and became a fixed story.
A setting has characters that you may or may not feature, the plot is not fixed, its a back ground to place my an your story.

But well there old world and 40K have moved towards being a fixed story, i'll blame books, tournaments, story time an the need for new stuff.

The book by them self's are blame less (these always some where to fit the story), the tournaments can only have the issue an every one has get involved in a multi way battle.
But time, warhammer an 40k was fixed for decades in a status quo of 2 minutes to midnight on the story's dooms day clock, there was little time left an every thing had to fit in the narrow span of time.
Add the need for new stuff like super prime space marines why? well many army's had a core of units that was lets face it a simple things people had loads of, a skeleton warrior is skeleton warrior an an orc is an orc.

Well add some more stuff and move the date forwards but that clock is moving forwards also with tournaments an story, slowly year by year.
It got silly as well a massive galaxy shaping battle would happen every year or so an well nothing changed, the warhammer 40k universe i encountered in 2000 was the same in 2015.