Warlord's new Italian Wars supplement and Swiss in 28 mm

[Maxromek]

Looks like Warlord Games is taking pre-orders for their new supplement for Hail Caesar called "Death and the Landsknechts". https://store.warlordgames.com/collections/landsknecht/0625

It's about the Italian Wars and if it's going to be similar to the one they recently did for Wars of the Roses, I will be very happy as that one I found very good. The knight/captain miniature that comes with the book is pretty nice too.

However, the 28 mm metal Swiss they are releasing alongside look really naff. Potato faces, huge sausage hands, bad proportions, uninspiring poses (the front rankers are particularly bad, holding their pikes in a very unnatural way) and entirely too modest clothing. Arquebusiers are very bad, kind of hugging the gun rather than properly aiming. For 18 quid per 8 models, it's honestly a bit offensive. The Wargames Foundry Landsknechts are cheaper and waaaaay nicer, so are Artizan Designs ones. Even Warlord's own Landsknechts are very nice and all of those can work as Swiss. I see no reason at all to buy these new ones.

[Atheling]

I saw the supplement earlier and the Swiss a few weeks ago. I cannot comment on the supplement except to say that I'll be buying a copy.

That said, I'm really not impressed by the quality of the sculpting on the Swiss- they look terrible! Apols for being negative but I have to be honest.

[Legiox217]

I came here to find this thread. The war of the roses book was excellent IMO, even as someone who may never play the game, so I am hoping this book is of the same or higher quality.
The Michael Percy sculpts I have to agree appear a bit disappointing. I had them in my cart a few times, and the paint jobs are pretty poor, so I was chalking it up to that - but I think they are just poor sculpts, which is a bit surprising because I have some of his work (it’s not bad) and would have expected a sort of Paul Hicks level of improvement over the years perhaps, having done work for Foundry etc but it doesn’t seem to be the case. The paint job is really not doing him any favors, bare white metal with black ink for recess display may have been a more appealing presentation .. I’m sure they would paint up nice enough , but 100% agreed old warlord and a plethora of superior options exist…


I think the 4 Marco Sano sculpts are very nice, I am not sure I am familiar with him but I will be soon I think, at least 1 or 2 of the mounted figs have my attention.

I hope the figure accompanying the book is metal, which I suspect it is, despite all the bolt action ones being failcast 

[HerbertTarkel]

One thing everyone can count on: Warlord is popular, but their sculpts will be crap.

There’s no real easy way around it: they’ve bought themselves a seat “at the table”, especially with Dolt Action, but their sculpts are AWFUL.

They had great Hicks sculpts, beheaded them, gave them to Wotjek their onboard “sculptor” and … he CANNOT sculpt. At all.

Terrible faces
Massive hands
Weirdo weapons

Warlord is … like GW but with no talent. It’s THAT BAD.

[Legiox217]

One thing everyone can count on: Warlord is popular, but their sculpts will be crap.

There’s no real easy way around it: they’ve bought themselves a seat “at the table”, especially with Dolt Action, but their sculpts are AWFUL.

They had great Hicks sculpts, beheaded them, gave them to Wotjek their onboard “sculptor” and … he CANNOT sculpt. At all.

Terrible faces
Massive hands
Weirdo weapons

Warlord is … like GW but with no talent. It’s THAT BAD.

 I agree with all of this, but wasn't aware of the Wojtek sculptor. They literally "beheaded" Hick's sculpts for him to redo!? Was this just to make the WW2 range cartoony and less offensive ? (ironically more offensive in some cases, so some have said)
 The kicker for me was when they surrendered one of the last reasons to still purchase their figs, METAL. The switch to that terrible resin was such a crime, as despite any negative feedback I have given, WLG do/does offer a pretty considerable batch of nice metal sculpts (often intermixed with sets of poorly sculpted ones though) and some can still be grabbed pretty cheap when they do their sales etc...which has me wondering with the dual factors occurring right now of;
1) clearing out all of their resin range for the 2000 AD line, and
2) releasing these new figures in metal at the same time.
 Though if their intention was to reignite interest with some nice metal sculpts, I can't believe how badly they missed the mark with the Swiss. Steelfist it is...

[HerbertTarkel]

Yeah, unfortunately all true. I was the first non-Warlord mod on their forum, and was in “at the beginning”. I saw much of the early days. The good and the bad. The best of intentions … and the unintended results.

Exeunt, stage left.

[Legiox217]

Yeah, unfortunately all true. I was the first non-Warlord mod on their forum, and was in “at the beginning”. I saw much of the early days. The good and the bad. The best of intentions … and the unintended results.

Exeunt, stage left.

*jumps on grenade* 

Cheers for the lore mate, it's going to be alright

They may be able to convince me to buy pages of pictures of their Swiss, though

[Maxromek]

I didn't really want this topic to change into Warlord Games bashing, especially since I think they do plenty of good stuff, but I guess here we are 😅

To bring it back slightly on topic, I do think that the paint job is really not helping these Swiss. The cavalry commanders are nicely painted, so is the captain that comes with the book, but the Swiss look like they were "army painted" by a commission painter. Perfectly good for gaming, weird choice for a promotional material. I may get a wee blister just out of curiosity, or hopefully somebody else will and post photos/videos on the web.

I am very excited for the book though. Between that and the recent Helion one, Italian Wars seem very nicely catered for.

[Legiox217]

I am very excited for the book though. Between that and the recent Helion one, Italian Wars seem very nicely catered for.

I will have to check out the Helion book, but I agree I am actually quite excited for this book - It may essentially be my primer for the period while I keep it on the backburner...I've only just gotten waist deep up to the late 15th century reading/hobbying related....cut it off right where this begins.

While we are on the topic of the period being catered to, I can attest to this as Steel Fist Miniatures have been a recently discovered treat for me personally. I have all 6 of their Swiss packs (I know these aren't Lansknecht, and may be JUST outside the books stated period range, but may fit the very first "Italian War"?) and they are simply lovely figures. I would rate them similarly to Perry sculpts but much higher in casting quality and metal used. I grabbed one set of their 'dollies' to use with some Perry plastic mercenary bits as well as some metal Swiss heads from Perry and Steel Fist. So I've got a nice little collection of earlier metal Swiss already, but;
 They also have quite an extensive Italian Wars range, which I just bring up again so people interested in the period can check them out... I tried them through a recommendation from LAF, so I am returning the confirmation. Thumbs up!
There is one pack of Lanskneckt Zwiehanders that has a really sweet looking fig in it...and of course I sampled their Hick's peasant war range...words fail to describe, I grabbed the "Radical Priest & Looters" pack and the amount of character oozing from this range is such a treat as a hobbyist.

Kind of like how awesome that Richard de la Pole figure is, I may actually use a War of the Rose decal I've collected recently on him !

[Atheling]

I didn't really want this topic to change into Warlord Games bashing, especially since I think they do plenty of good stuff, but I guess here we are 😅

Being honest about a subject one is passionate about is not "bashing". It is simply being honest about what I see as sub standard sculpts. The Paul Hicks sculpted Warlord Landsknechts are fantastic sculpts which is not the case with the new Warlord Swiss.

I may get a wee blister just out of curiosity, or hopefully somebody else will and post photos/videos on the web.

Please do post up the raw sculpts if you do.

I am very excited for the book though. Between that and the recent Helion one, Italian Wars seem very nicely catered for.

Yeah, me too. It's in my basket now. I was waiting to see what else they would produce in support of the book- it seems very little except the Swiss and the three "characters". I do hope I am incorrect with this assumption.

I am very excited for the book though. Between that and the recent Helion one, Italian Wars seem very nicely catered for.

Well, given the rate of military reform and changes in military fashion, the Italian Wars are surprisingly uncatered for IMHO. The recent Helion books have been a great boon to the subject (shout out to Massimo!) and it's always great to get a supplement to match ones interests but I will reserve judgement until I have read the book.

[Charlie_]

Those Swiss seem like a real missed opportunity.

Nobody actually does a range of Italian Wars swiss that I know of. So everybody either uses late 15th century sculpts to represent them (several decades too early), or uses Landsknechts, which to be fair is probably close enough. I might be wrong but by the 1520s the Landsknechts and Swiss would pretty much look identical, right?
But there is a window in the early 1500s where the Swiss would probably look quite distinct, and this is the first range that actually depicts them. Unfortunately, they don't look very good!

The most bafflingly poor bit of sculpting for me is the mail - this does just seem to random pinprick holes stabbed into the putty. Surely all professionals sculptors have a better technique to make mail look like mail???
Zoom in on this pic to see what I'm talking about...

[Legiox217]

The most bafflingly poor bit of sculpting for me is the mail - this does just seem to random pinprick holes stabbed into the putty. Surely all professionals sculptors have a better technique to make mail look like mail???
Zoom in on this pic to see what I'm talking about...

Funny you should mention the mail, as my eyes were drawn to that for a more than a few moments as well, and I found myself amusingly wondering if it was the quality of the sculpt, or taking a second look at the figure, if paint had simply clogged up the detail …
 Interesting point about the gap between end of 15th and early 16th . You gave me something to look into. Definitely a shame then if these are how they may have looked.

[Atheling]

Those Swiss seem like a real missed opportunity.

Nobody actually does a range of Italian Wars swiss that I know of. So everybody either uses late 15th century sculpts to represent them (several decades too early), or uses Landsknechts, which to be fair is probably close enough. I might be wrong but by the 1520s the Landsknechts and Swiss would pretty much look identical, right?
But there is a window in the early 1500s where the Swiss would probably look quite distinct, and this is the first range that actually depicts them. Unfortunately, they don't look very good!

Artizan Designs do a amall range but the poses are very limited. This is a real missed opportunity IMHO:
https://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=20&cat=147&page=1

The most bafflingly poor bit of sculpting for me is the mail - this does just seem to random pinprick holes stabbed into the putty. Surely all professionals sculptors have a better technique to make mail look like mail???
Zoom in on this pic to see what I'm talking about...

Put is this way, the mail on these new sculpts is as bad as I have ever seen on a 28mm model.

[carlos marighela]

Being honest about a subject one is passionate about is not "bashing". It is simply being honest about what I see as sub standard sculpts. The Paul Hicks sculpted Warlord Landsknechts are fantastic sculpts which is not the case with the new Warlord Swiss.

I think the pattern runs like this. When Warlord start a period or buy an existing range, they often have the services of a good, or in the case of Mr Hicks, top rate sculptor. There is much oohing and ahring in the WG office until the price of the sculpts comes up. At which point one of Stallard's minions pipes up with ' I know a bloke down at Brixton Market, who'll knock out a couple of dozen of those for a pony'.

Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

[Maxromek]

Yeah, the mail is awful, not just the sculpting but look at the leader from the command set - what the hell is this shape? Some sort of vest? With a placard attached directly to it? It's just straight made up and ugly. Also, because I just noticed it, how can you hold a sword in a way in which your sleeve is in front of the handle and the pommel??? I tried it with my reenactment sword and it's nothing but awkward and makes my wrist hurt.

I don't even know if I have the will to discuss how awful it is to have 2-3 bodies for each set of 8 figs and just do head swaps.

I think a lot of "damage" has been done to the early Italian Wars Swiss by tow things: 1) people repeating that they were less fancy than Landsknechts (which is not a definite truth and certainly false by the later stages), and 2) people constantly using Perry plastics mercenaries to make them. These two things combined into this surface level portrayal that's just not adequate for Italian Wars. In terms of what these new Swiss are wearing, it kind of look like someone was shown a Perry plastic mercenary and a Warlord plastic Landsknechts and was told to do "something in between". Throw in poor understanding of armour and the result is... Awful.