Heraldry assistance

[Stuart]

Thought I’d keep this going. There are two more nobles I’m interested in who served alongside Molyneux & Blundell in the Stanley contingent;

Sir Thomas Gerrard of Bryn in Ashton, Mackerfield 1488-1523

Sir Henry Kighley of Inskip near Preston 1451-1526

I haven’t got round to trying in earnest to find their heraldry but it’s not immediately obvious from a cursory look.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[Rick]

Presumably 'Mackerfield' is what we know of as Macclesfield?
And argh, oogh and other expressions of frustration - I came across the name Kighley when searching for Henry Blundell, but not in connection with Flodden - I shall have to retrace my steps!

[Rick]

Sir Henry Kighley of Inskip, Preston. 1451-1526.
The surname changes an awful lot from Kythely to Keghley, Kyghley, Kighley and the more modern version, Keighley, with the town named for the family (I mention this because the town of Keighley uses a modified version of the Keighley family heraldry).

[Rick]

The Gerards or Gerrards, from the Germanic Gerhard (spear-brave) have several branches of the family, some with different heraldry. Oddly, there is even a Gerard of Ince branch, who may be neighbours to the Blundells of Ince!
This is the heraldry of Sir Thomas Gerrard 1488-1523 as far as I can ascertain.

[Rick]

The Kighley shield should be easy to paint but you're going to need transfers for Gerrard, I think! 

[Stuart]

Thanks again Rick. I suspect I may favour Keighley over Gerrard when selecting which knight will have a surcoat.

On that point it’s interesting to see that surcoats and indeed earlier armour hung around for quite a bit in the early 16c especially with some of the lesser nobles. It makes a Flodden collection that much easier to do - albeit with 16c clothing and armour present too.

[Rick]

I saw that with the tomb of one of these blokes - they referenced the fact that the armour was of an earlier style. Presumably, unlike the knights that went with Henry to France, these guys weren't expecting to go to war and had no time to commission a brand new set of armour - they would likely have refurbished whatever they had standing in the armoury, got a new surcoat and off they jolly well went! WotR armour would be perfectly in keeping I would have thought.
Next is the trickier bit - the heraldry is one thing but do we have any idea what retinue badges their followers might have worn?

[Stuart]

In this case yes, they wore the Stanley eagle claw badge. Some of the (likely captains) wore blue Stanley livery coats too which is unusual for an army raised for home defence but as you say that might be all they had.

There were Stanley’s of the bishop of Ely present also who wore the three crowns of the bishopric and carried the banner of St Audrey

The bulk of the rest of the army had the white coat with St George cross or just a cross (and occasionally livery badge) on their coats / jacks

[Maxromek]

When we talk about liveries in the Flodden-period, I assume we are talking about coloured "basecoats" not "vests" of WotR period, correct?If so, do we know when that change occured, roughly?

[Stuart]

Yes in the majority it’s coats.

Around 1500 they are full base coats but whilst state sponsored they weren’t issued by the state so there was a lot of variation

I forgot to mention the marines under Howard wore the white guarded green livery coats.

The bulk of the army in France wore those and observers commented upon this.

[Rick]

Oh right - so we're starting to see a kind of English army-wide 'uniform' of sorts starting to appear around this time? A requirement for a common colour rather than a kaleidoscope of individual liveries?

[Stuart]

1499 is the earliest reference I can find for the longer coat (where length is stipulated)

Henry VII brought in ‘coat money’ statute, this was a levy or forced payment collected ostensibly to provide soldiers with military coats or uniforms before campaigns. However, it often functioned as a disguised form of taxation or a means of raising revenue for the crown.

In practice, recipients of the demand often had to pay the sum but did not receive a coat, making it a clever way for Henry to gain funds without calling Parliament to approve a formal tax. The cost of the coat was borne by the noble who raised them - some being cloth, others being damask depending on status / position and more importantly budget.

[Stuart]

And confusingly ‘coat money’ didn’t necessarily refer to a cost but the kings badge (St George cross for external wars) but it had to be put on something.

‘White coat’ in the late medieval period and this was also a word for an English soldier

[fred]

Sir Thomas Gerrard of Bryn in Ashton, Mackerfield 1488-1523

Presumably 'Mackerfield' is what we know of as Macclesfield?

There is an Ashton-in-Makerfield - just off the M6 near Wigan. Not sure if there is a general NW connection to the various nobles Stuart is finding or not?

[Rick]

North, definitely. From what I've read (Flodden is usually outside the periods I'm mainly interested in) the local nobles and militia of the North West and North East were called to muster as the Earl of Surrey marched north to meet them with his forces, aiming to meet up and intercept the Scots army heading South after it had crossed the border.
What I find fascinating is that it's the same system as had been implemented (or adapted) by Aelfred for the defence of Wessex and Mercia, it's the same system used by Harold Godwinson in 1066 - apart from changing names and details, it is basically the same system in use for over 700 years at this point (and would be continued to be used for hundreds of years afterwards) for home defence.