Rules Recommendations for "Large Scale" 10mm games?

[SJWi]

Good morning. I mainly game WW2 in 20mm using either PSC's "Battlegroup" or 2FL's Chain of Command. That said after nearly 30 years in storage I've recently dug out my large collection of Skytrex 1/200 1940s French and Germans and find I don't have a set of rules for "large scale" battles. In theory Battlegroup would handle the armour side OK, but not infantry.  What other good rules can people recommend for large scale combined arms battles. I know of "Blitzkrieg Commander" but for some reason never seem to get on with them. Maybe its just the way they are written doesn't float my boat!

Thanks   

[Rick]

From what you've said, I assume you want a set focussing on something like a battalion level game, but at 1:1 scale, rather than the '1 tank is a platoon' approach of, say, Combined Arms?
I've not played it, but several people on LAF have mentioned 'O Group' by 2FL as being a good set to use for bigger battles and that might fit with what you're looking for?

[robh]

..... In theory Battlegroup would handle the armour side OK, but not infantry.....

 ,  why do you say that?  I think Battlegroup (or at least it's KGN precursor) handles Infantry and combined arms tactics very well.

What do you class as a "large scale" game? Brigade size actions with battalions and regiments as the units? If so Rapid Fire is a very popular option as it "bathtubs" these size units into more manageable tabletop formations.

Personally I think Panzer Korps by Hoplite Games is the best option for games that are too big for KGN but not big enough for Rommel. Point of Attack from the Piquet stable is also excellent, but very much not to everyone's taste.

[fred]

It might help to clarify what you mean by bigger battle, if its lots of models on the table, or that each model represents a higher level of command.

We've found BKC is one of the few WWII games that supports lots of models on the table and reasonable game completion time - but it's pretty abstract and not for all. I've blown hot and cold with it over the years.

O group is a good game - but its quite small scale on a model count and manoeuvre element perspective.

If you do want to represent huge actions, then both Rommel and Eisenhower allow both a high representative scale, and lots of models on the table.

Overall good luck with your hunt - as this is the type of rules I've been looking for for some years - and we have cycled through a lot of rulesets in that time.

I do wonder if Rapid Fire is next up to try - as we use its scenario books a lot.

[jon_1066]

We play O Group.  It’s battalion scale so your core force is 9 platoons each of 3 sections plus as many supports that you care to add (typically another 4-6 platoons of various tanks, guns, etc)

[SJWi]

Chaps,  thanks for the various replies especially given the imprecision of my question. I guess by "large scale" I meant lots of kit on the table. My comments on the various answers and supplementary questions are as follows;

As regards using Battlegroup I could use these for armour and artillery, but their basic premise for infantry is individual figure removal. Not ideal for 1/200 albeit I do admit I could use micro dice to indicate casualties. I had hear a rumour that PSC planned a ruleset called something like "Battlegroup Commander" which was aimed at 10mm and I guessed would be like NORTHAG with infantry in squad/section sized bases and fairly abstracted. However the trail has gone cold on them . I did look at NORTHAG last week with a view to simply porting their infantry system across but it isn't quite as simple as I thought.

I've played O Group and (a) must admit I didn't enjoy it....although 2 of my mates love it and (b) I thought they are basically an infantry game with "support" elements.

I've just looked up Panzer Corps as I haven't heard of them before. Could be promising. I see there is a V1 and v2 ? Does anyone know how different they are?

I keep forgetting about Rapid Fire. I recall they were very popular in the 1980s and I know they have a dedicated following. Does anyone know the difference between "Rapid Fire" and "Rapid Fire Reloaded" .The former is £20 and the latter only £5!!

I have also bought and tried Kampfgruppe Commander III. They gave an interesting game and describe "big battles" but we found even small encounters with limited troop numbers took a full evening to play through.

Thanks 

           

[BeneathALeadMountain]

SJWi - I’m also waiting for Battlegroup Commander to use my 6mm WW2 hoard with as I’m not a massive fan of abstraction - I might try and poke PSC and try and get some info on infantry basing/casualties so I can make some progress  (it’s their fault).

O group isn’t 1:1 as tanks aren’t fully represented and I couldn’t find a reasonable way to counter this - which really put me off it. I also bought KGC3 with the same intent and like you found it’s gives an excellent (crunchy) game but probably won’t get much more to the table than Battlegroup does.

Off to hassle PSC!

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain

[fred]

Battlegroup works fine with multi based infantry- just count the base as a squad or weapons team and track wounds with a mini dice. We’ve only played it this way with both 10mm and 15mm figures.

I’m not entirely sure why O group scales vehicles 2:1 but it makes no difference to how the game plays if you say it’s 1:1.

[robh]

Battlegroup works fine with multi based infantry- just count the base as a squad or weapons team

Absolutely, we play it (and Panzer Korps) with my 1/300 Spearhead collection which has 1 vehicle/gun & crew or 6-8 infantry figures on 30mm square bases. We use rosters rather than dice for casualties.

I've just looked up Panzer Corps as I haven't heard of them before. Could be promising. I see there is a V1 and v2 ? Does anyone know how different they are?

I keep forgetting about Rapid Fire. I recall they were very popular in the 1980s and I know they have a dedicated following. Does anyone know the difference between "Rapid Fire" and "Rapid Fire Reloaded" .The former is £20 and the latter only £5!!

Panzer Korps v2 (aka the 10th Anniversary edition) are the same as v1, but marginally better explained. It includes any errata from v1 and extra playsheet information. Either will work and will be compatible with the campaign and scenario books.

As for Rapid Fire the "Reloaded" version is the current iteration and replaces the earlier rules. Changes are substantial and uptake has not been universal by any means. A lot of people still prefer the older. I am not a RF player (but I do use the campaign books) but I get the impression that Reloaded leans more heavily into the Battlegroups "balanced forces" style of gaming.

[SJWi]

Chaps, thanks for the observations.

Fred/Robh, I'll probably start with BG as (a) we have them, plus the early war campaign book (b) more importantly know and like them!  One question. Do you still keep to everything in inches when gaming "small scale"?

I can get a copy of Panzer Korps v1 for half the price of v2 hence my question. I might look around for a 2nd hand copy.

Andrew, good luck hassling PSC.  Whilst I like BG, the campaign books and their new resin models their communication is lousy.     

[fred]

We played distances as written with 10mm models (tanks on 50x30mm bases).

We nearly always play rules with smaller figures with the distances they were written with -partly it avoids messing around with converting values, but also it just tends to look better, as most ground scales are very compressed to the figure scales.

[SJWi]

Fred, thanks for the advice.  I do the same when playing with 15 or 20mm figures rather than 28s, the ranges in particular sometimes look weird when using 28s.

My big decision now is how to base my infantry. In BG the French tend to be in 6 man rifle squads with  a VB squad, albeit the mechanised troops are different. The German infantry are different if Panzergrnadier of "leg" infantry . I sense some compromises coming on.   

[robh]

We leave distances in inches also as it looks better.  As for basing I would recommend a variable number of figures per base as the models are only there for appearance, the actual strength being recorded by roster or casualty die.

If you do get into Panzer Korps feel free to drop me a line with any queries, since Manny's death last year the Hoplite website and the game support iO group have been unavailable. There was a Facebook group but as I don't use it I have no idea if it is still working.
The rules are excellent and we use them a lot but the concepts behind the force structures and the layout of the book take some time to pick up.

[BeneathALeadMountain]

I’ve specifically asked PSC for some information on Battlegroup Commander and its infantry on regards to basing and how casualties will be dealt with. I know it’s optimistic but I’ll keep my fingers crossed and update if anything is discovered.

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain

[SJWi]

Andrew thanks. I guess it will be similar to the treatment of infantry in their Northag modern rules. However most 1980s onwards infantry are pretty generic, but WW2 infantry units vary wildly in numbers, equipment and capability . Not as easy as I first thoughr.