Moon wargaming - some thoughts.

[Rick]

Rather than derailing zrunelords post any further with a discussion of rules ideas to use with GZG's excellent 'Moongrunt' rules, I thought I'd start this thread to discuss ideas.

As far as technology goes, the figures look to be somewhere slightly more advanced than now but nowhere near as advanced as the Stargrunt ranges. The figures are all in reinforced spacesuits which are probably kevlar (or equivalent) reinforced, but no powered armour or hardsuit armour, no jet packs or plasma cannon either!

The rules will have to take into account the vastly reduced gravity, near vacuum and the smaller size of the Moon, which will affect most of the standard rules we normally take for granted in a wargame.
Movement will be less about maximum distance covered and more about control - those big jumps and bunny hops of the Apollo missions looked good until you realise that you need as much power and control to stop as you did to start, or the momentum will have you smack into the ground, also that those big jumps leave you hanging in mid-air for long periods, in plain sight of every enemy figure with a gun. Tactical movement is likely to be brief, controlled and designed to make maximum use of cover and concealment.
Weapon ranges would be long - a weapon that can fire about 1,000 metres on Earth would fire over 8,000 metres on the Moon (or thereabouts) which is fine until you realise the Moon is much smaller and the horizon is only about 800 or 900 metres away. So, weapon fire would be dependant on accuracy and cover, not maximum ranges - also you'd have to keep that level of power in order to be able to penetrate a spacesuit at distance. Fragmentation grenades would be a problem - a 20 metre burst radius suddenly expands to fill over half the battlefield with flying shrapnel, which is not desirable if your own figures are there as well. Concussion grenades (from a grenade launcher) might be a better option - no shrapnel effect so just the blast area from the explosive - although with no air to push the blast wave outwards, it would be a small radius explosion but enough to crack a visor of a suit seal. Rocket launchers might be another option but the propellant in the rocket would be used to stop it, not keep it going, where it could explode a shaped charge downwards (limiting the shrapnel spread) similar to a modern top-attack missile.
Of course any explosion is likely to kick up a cloud of dust which would stay up longer than a smoke cloud on earth (and with similar effects).
Thermal, IR and UV sights are likely to be ineffective during a Lunar day when the unfiltered sun is heating everything up to a fairly uniform degree but drones (wheeled, tracked or, possibly, walkers) would be very useful.

Any thoughts?

[Inkpaduta]

You could try Lunar. Great little game.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

At skirmish ranges, lethal range for shrapnel is line of sight, it is more reducing the chance of being hit as the distance from the burst point increases.

[Rick]

You could try Lunar. Great little game.

I know and I did consider it at one point - but it did seem like an awful lot of money for a rehash of 'Lunar Surface Warfare 1960' by Dr Chris Flaherty.
Plus I wanted something set in the near future, not back in a hypothetical cold war.

[Cat]

Bunny-hopping on the moon was reportedly less strenuous than trying to walk.  So more controlled movement would induce more fatigue than faster (and more exposed) bounding.  A nice twist on more terrestrial movement rules.

Hmm, may pick up a copy of 'Lunar Surface Warfare 1960'  for the rules reference library!

[Commander Roj]

What you say Rick is not dissimilar to the Miniature Wargames article, which suggests using BA. I'm inclined to give it ago or use Tomorrow's War, having about a dozen a side painted. I haven't completed my drones yet though. This range seems criminally under used and I'm as guilty as anyone. Lunar has neither the scale nor ease of availability in the UK to appeal to me, notwithstanding that I have seen some nice work on LAF.

[Rick]

I saw that very blog post, which prompted me to order the back issues with that article and jon tuffley's rules that were used for the 'dark side of the moon' exhibition game a few years ago. There were also a couple of posts on the proposed historical war concept that the US and Soviets were looking at by Dr Chris Flaherty which also interested me greatly - as I mentioned above, he wrote a book with wargame rules and scenarios in; "Lunar Surface Warfare 1960" which does seem to have influenced the Lunar rules (I wonder if he's credited in the book).
I'd be interested in moving it further forward than the 1960's and including drones, which are today's 'weapon system de jour', albeit of a fairly basic wheeled or tracked design, which could be interesting.

[Cat]

There were also a couple of posts on the proposed historical war concept that the US and Soviets were looking at by Dr Chris Flaherty which also interested me greatly - as I mentioned above, he wrote a book with wargame rules and scenarios in; "Lunar Surface Warfare 1960" which does seem to have influenced the Lunar rules (I wonder if he's credited in the book).

Lunar does not have a 'Designer's Notes' section where credits for inspiration are likely to land.  Brief intro mentions they began work on it in 2018.  Copyright date 2020.  So, unlikely to have been strongly influenced by Lunar Surface Warfare 1960 (2021).  Independent creations looks likely.
 
For All Mankind started airing in Nov 2019.  Production announcements had begun rolling out by Dec 2017.  Casting announcements Aug 2018.  This sort of thing may well have launched game design thoughts.

[carlos marighela]

The horizon on the moon for someone around the two metre mark (give or take) is actually around 2.6 km or roughly half of what it is on earth (circa 5 km). The distance of the horizon is just a mathematical formula after all and the Moon isn't quite that small.

[zrunelord]

Thank you Rick for starting this thread.

Drones will need a compressed air supply as I do not think fans will work in vacuum... but doable since there's no resistance.
Unfortunately all the rules I have ( Laser burn, Azhanti high lightning, Battle Born, Space Marines etc... ) do not tackle skirmishes in space or in vacuum...
but as I said they can be created.

To continue on what I wrote before

I honestly was thinking about using Squad hammer and adding the following " In Vacuum " house rules.
Though I still need to sit down & think them through . More to come... just writing things down...

a) Weapons & distances remain the same ( one assumes that they are designed for use in hard vacuum )
b) Jump/ hop movement & / or Jetpack assisted.
c) Mag boots for when doing ship outer skin assaults.
d) On Fumbles model flies out into space.
e) Suit damage ( Auto seal ? ) & or push back ( random direction or direction of shot )
f) Communication should not be a problem unless there is a large ( spaceship ? ) mass in between.
g) Solar glare reduces LOS or visibility.

Z

[Rick]

If you go back through what I've written, zrunelord, you'll likely see that at no point do I mention aerial drones! 
The problem, as you point out, is they'd need a propellant to keep them up and while they are up, they're visible to everyone - no handy trees to hide behind. Which is the reason I only mentioned tracked, wheeled and (possibly) walking drones - much more like the US Army Battlefield Robot concept than the UAV's that are the prevalent form of drones on this planet.

[JonGZG]

I saw that very blog post, which prompted me to order the back issues with that article and jon tuffley's rules that were used for the 'dark side of the moon' exhibition game a few years ago.
<snip>

Just to clarify, although DSotM used mostly my Moongrunt figures, the rules used (in the show game and the follow-up articles) were NOT mine - they were by John Treadaway and the rest of the chaps (from the Warlords) who were running the show participation game with him. 

Jon (GZG)

[Cat]

Jon, any chance GZG will eventually roll out a Moon game to go with the lovely figures?  Or at least a Moonie addendum to Stargrunt?
 
Please.
Cat
=^,^=

[Rick]

Whups, my bad. Thanks for the clarification Jon.
And I wish to second Cat's request, along with a request for more Moongrunt factions! 

[zrunelord]

If you go back through what I've written, zrunelord, you'll likely see that at no point do I mention aerial drones! 

Rick, I read drone & went off on a tangent  .... though in my defence, compressed air powered aerial drones are also a possibility
Imagine a compressed air canister as small as an airsoft one.
They could also be solar powered & so can recon & send pics. I think it is possible.
Paint them black & they will be almost impossible to detect against the sky ( night sky ? )

& definitely more Moongrunts factions would be nice.

Z