Educating Dimitri - two basic BOB questions

[Remington]

Dear Lead Adventurers,

two questions have been burning two holes in my head since seeing BOB mentioned for the first time. That was on the Copplestone page some years ago... Ok, please bear with my ignorance:

1. Where does the phrase Back of Beyond come from? I've heard it in connection to some place in Australia but why Central Asia specifically?
2. How can the short trousered British be in the same copplestone range as all the Russians and White Russians? Did they deploy in the place they deployed ( as far as I know the Crimea was one of them... Interestingly enough some Greeks were there too) in short trousers and short sleeves?

I've tried googling my two questions but I must be doing something wrong. Well, here it is... Ignorant as a brick!

Regards,

Dimitri

[Trooper]

Dimitri,

as Bezzo says, in English idiom "back of beyond" means any place that is really remote and not very well explored/known/mapped. I think Copplestone used it for the range as he intend to set it in the far flung reaches of Asia and those regions. The British troops in his range, were originally intended to fight the Turks in the Dardenelles and the Middle East, hence their more tropical dress. They could however fight quite happily in India and on the North West frontier.

You are quite right, British troops did fight during the Russian Civil War, and would have worn much warmer clothing appropriate to those regions. But I think that the Copplestone BoB range was intended for more "pulp" style, not neccessarily "historical" combat. Most gamers have set their BoB actions in the warmer Asian regions, and those areas around Afghanistan and similar locations, hence a warmer climate which enables British troops in tropical dress to take part, and allows the inclusion of Tribesmen etc.

Hope this helps to heal those holes in your head.

[Hammers]

1. Where does the phrase Back of Beyond come from? I've heard it in connection to some place in Australia but why Central Asia specifically?

What Bezzo, said.

2. How can the short trousered British be in the same copplestone range as all the Russians and White Russians? Did they deploy in the place they deployed ( as far as I know the Crimea was one of them... Interestingly enough some Greeks were there too) in short trousers and short sleeves?

It depends on how hostorically correct you want to be. I am not as read up on all areas of what's nebulously considered BoB, but I imagine the north of Persia and what is today Iraq are places where Brits in shorts would run into Russians of both kinds as allies or foes.

Also remember than most BoB players, like myself, are more interested in capturing the feel of that anarchic place and time rather than Getting It Right. I am therefore happy to mix in small posrtions of  Turks, Russians, Germans and even imagined nationalities in my post WWI NWF setting.

[Poliorketes]

The BoB-Miniatures line accompanied the Rulesset of the same name, and the setting was in central asia. Included are army lists for historical opponents, plus some what-ifs. The british had troops at the ready on the persian-russian border, and these are depicted in the Copplestone range.

The term back of beyond has it's german equivalent 'in den Karpaten' (transl. 'in the carpathians'), which has nothing to do with vampires and the like.

[Remington]

Wow, perfect! Thank you so much for filling the gaps! Strangely enough, my British girlfriend had never heard of the phrase!

Poliorketes... would that be something along the lines of "am A... der Welt"?

PS: As for the historical correctness... I wasn't too worried, but the short pants always baffled me. That would have been a very stiff upper lip if they were wearing these in Russia. 

[Hammers]

'in den Karpaten' (transl. 'in the carpathians')

Interesting. We say "Bortom ära och redlighet", which, roughly translated, means 'Beyond honour and indostriousness'

[Plynkes]

The Brits briefly intervened into Turkestan from Persia in an attempt to forestall the Bolsheviks in 1918. Can't remember if your Tommies in shorts were involved or if it was just Indian troops, mind. It would seem a fight between some Punjabi machine-gunners and the Reds was the first confrontation between British and Russian troops since the Crimea.


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(Where I come from the Never-Never was how you paid for a TV when I was a kid.)

[Red Orc]

Wow, perfect! Thank you so much for filling the gaps! Strangely enough, my British girlfriend had never heard of the phrase!...

I'd be suspicious. She might be a spy, only pretending to be British. Ask her if she can explain either the Offside rule or LBW, and if she can, be very suspicious, she must be pretending to be a girl too.

Honestly, 'the back of beyond' (not in Walter Scott's spelling) is a pretty standard phrase describing approximately the same place as 'the middle of nowhere'.

It's also pretty meaningless grammatically being composed of an adjective and a prepostition, a bit like 'the front of above' or 'the bottom of underneath'. As 'back of' implies 'beyond' anyway (ie, beyond the nearest parts) it sort of means 'beyond beyond'; go away, and when you've gone, go a bit further...

Funny stuff language.

[Remington]

Well, she's from the North... Do they have the same expressions there? No, I think I might have ballsed this up all by myself... If I remember correctly, I asked her if she knew the phrase and immediately brought it into connection with Asia and Russia. Maybe that confused her. Maybe she wasn't listening... as usual! Pfff...

 

I'll ask her again today.


Oh, thanks Plynkes. Great read. Need to buy this.

[Red Orc]

Well, she's from the North... Do they have the same expressions there? ...

Yeah. I'm from the North, as are my parents, and we all use it. Quite a bit, actually.

But then again, now I think on, they also used to have a poster of Walter Scott in the dining room, and I remember they read me 'The Black Arrow' as a kid, and we watched 'Ivanhoe' (both Sunday afternoon serial and the film when it was on) and my dad used to recite bits of 'Young Lochinvar' or whatever it's called and we used to go to ruined castles in the Borders a lot (the sort of places Scott was writing about)... so now you come to mention it I *might* have been in the youth wing of the Walter Scott fan club without realising it... 

...
No, I think I might have ballsed this up all by myself... If I remember correctly, I asked her if she knew the phrase and immediately brought it into connection with Asia and Russia. Maybe that confused her...

Yup, it's probably your fault!  We really don't have that many expressions in Northern England that directly refer to Central Asia. Wind from Siberia sometimes, along with most of the rest of the North European Plain, but 'back of beyond' usually refers to small out of the way villages and farms in the wild hilly country of Northumberland and Cumbria (not like the nice civilised parts of Durham where I'm from  )

[Svennn]

Perhaps it is just because it is a lot more polite than "Arse end of nowhere"? 

please excuse my Hammers moment 

[Hammers]

Perhaps it is just because it is a lot more polite than "Arse end of nowhere"? 

please excuse my Hammers moment 

Get your own damn moments, copy cat!

[Molesworth]

Yup, it's probably your fault!  We really don't have that many expressions in Northern England that directly refer to Central Asia. Wind from Siberia sometimes, along with most of the rest of the North European Plain, but 'back of beyond' usually refers to small out of the way villages and farms in the wild hilly country of Northumberland and Cumbria (not like the nice civilised parts of Durham where I'm from  )

well my bit of County Durham is definately lacking much in the way of civilisation! ;o) wet, windy, still got snow, was very Dr Zivago-esque a few weeks ago and all we have to look forward to are the caravan club and campers at easter....and beyond!!!

[Remington]

Well, I asked and yes, she knew the expression... D'oh!

Just remembered something I saw on youtube... I am sure that, should the Brits had gone to Russia with such short pants, they would have surely and at the very least kept their standards

. 

[Mark Plant]

The Brits briefly intervened into Turkestan from Persia in an attempt to forestall the Bolsheviks in 1918. Can't remember if your Tommies in shorts were involved or if it was just Indian troops, mind.

Mostly Indians, but also a company or two of regular British (1/4 Hants).

The British in Baku (Dunsterforce) definitely wore shorts and solar topees.

Those two campaigns used to be all the rage in BoB, but seem to be less popular now compared to the Siberian stuff.