War of the Roses figs in a 100 Years War army?

[akanous]

Having been caught up in the fervor surrounding the impending release of Warhammer 8th, I've decided to start rounding out the handful of classic (3rd Ed.) Perry brother Bretonnian knights that I have into a full fledged army.  As I am not particularly enamored with the styling of the last two iterations of the Bretonnian figure lines, and these older figures look more at home in a historicals range, I've settled on expanding the force with 100 Years War figs, likely Perry.  This will also allow the army to pull double duty for WAB or other historical rules (Impetus?).

While I'm generally happy with the Perry's "Agincourt to Orleans" range, I've become absolutely smitten with their War of the Roses plastics thanks to the work that's been posted to these forums.  I know there's nearly 100 years between these conflicts, and thus I can't (or shouldn't) freely use figures for one in an army for another, but in terms of the unarmored or chain armored infantry, I'm having a difficult time discerning an obvious difference.

So, can any grognard out there tell me why adding a box of the plastic WotR archers to my force of 100 Years War cavalry and armored infantry is a bad idea?  Unfortunately my existing knowledge on this subject matter is simply not sufficient.

Thanks!

[Captain Blood]

I think the armour and equipment at the tail end of the Hundred Years War (around 1450) would have been pretty much the same at in the first phase of the Wars of the Roses (around 1450!)

I suppose the look of the armour and dress at Agincourt in 1415 would have been rather different to the look of the armour in the 'high period' of the Wars of The Roses 1460-1470 (ish), particularly in the style of plate armour and visored helmets. But would the dress, equipment and basic helmets of the longbowman have changed that much?

Probably not so that anyone other than an expert would be able to tell the difference.

[Arlequín]

Fashions changed over the 100+ years of the HYW, so troops of the 1350s looked very different to those of the 1450s. Even in the Wars of the Roses there was a different look between 1455 and 1485 (mainly in armour). However there would be times where these styles crossed over. Let's face it though your archers could hardly afford to run down to GAP every few years to update their wardrobe.

If you're solely playing Whammer then you are likely to get criticised more for using non-GW figures than you ever will be over mixing historical styles. Personally I'd say that the WotR figures would be more at home in an Imperial army though. I also expect that with a new edition of the game the armies will get a makeover in any case (many of the Perry sculpted Foundry figures were once Imperials and the Foundry HYW range started off as Bretonnians back in the day).

Historical players are also unforgiving in the main and to be honest you could get away with mixing WotR figures within the 'Agincourt to Orleans' range to an extent, or AtoO with those from the Crecy and Poitiers era that the old Bretonnian range, but mixing figures from the extreme ends of the age would be pretty anachronistic.

As the Perrys will be releasing Pikes, Crossbows and Handguns and at a latter point mounted 'Knights', the odds are that you will like these as much as the current pack. You might therefore end up 'retiring' your Bretonnians in the long run in favour of these, so why not just start from scratch now? 

[OSHIROmodels]

I would imagine the common soldier would have hand-me-downs aswell as 'second hand' clothes and armour, whatever they could find, unless their liege lord was rather well off 

cheers

James

[akanous]

Thanks for the replies Captain Blood and jimbibbly!

If you're solely playing Whammer then you are likely to get criticised more for using non-GW figures than you ever will be over mixing historical styles. Personally I'd say that the WotR figures would be more at home in an Imperial army though. I also expect that with a new edition of the game the armies will get a makeover in any case (many of the Perry sculpted Foundry figures were once Imperials and the Foundry HYW range started off as Bretonnians back in the day).

Fortunately I play with a relatively relaxed group, so the GW figure only policy that many people criticize GW players as espousing has never reared its head amongst the people with which I game.  As I'm not a tournament gamer at all, I'm not worried about my army being "outlawed" either.  Considering that the current Bretonnian range is in plastic, and the associated investment in producing a range in plastic, I'm not sure that the range will get much of a cosmetic overhaul.  Even if it did, it would probably be further down the fantasy path in the opposite direction of the early Bretonnian range that I prefer.

Historical players are also unforgiving in the main and to be honest you could get away with mixing WotR figures within the 'Agincourt to Orleans' range to an extent, or AtoO with those from the Crecy and Poitiers era that the old Bretonnian range, but mixing figures from the extreme ends of the age would be pretty anachronistic.

Thanks for that clarification.  The Bretonnians that I have, and want to build my force around, are of this type: http://solegends.com/citcat912/c20233brettcav.htm  I'd generally been informed that they were inspired by the 100 Years War but was unsure what period within that conflict specifically.

As the Perrys will be releasing Pikes, Crossbows and Handguns and at a latter point mounted 'Knights', the odds are that you will like these as much as the current pack. You might therefore end up 'retiring' your Bretonnians in the long run in favour of these, so why not just start from scratch now?

Because the desire to build the Bretonnian force is based mostly out of sentiment for the look of the armies around when I was a youngster.  However I'd have to take out a loan just to afford the prices figures from that era go for on eBay, and even then they only appear sporadically.  The Perry AtoO range is a fine alternative, but I just really rather liked the WotR plastics and was hoping I had a good excuse for including them.   

Any word as to whether the 100 Years War will be getting the plastic treatment?

[Mad Doc Morris]

The old Bretonnians were inspired by all kinds of 14th century fashions, with a tendency towards the latter half of the 1300's. Therefore I wouldn't mind to mix them with minis from the Perry's Agincourt range with their somewhat 'advanced' equipment. I thought about that for my own Bretonnians, too.

Personally, though, I wouldn't incorporate minis from the WotR range, neither into a Bretonnian nor a historical army. They are quite distinguished by their different armour and fashion styles: A very late HYW army made of WotR models might be alright, but most items (such as visored sallets, fluted armour, 'puff sleeves' and closed trousers) clearly belong to a later period. They actually have more in common with 16th century styles than with the earlier, Medieval ones. Like Jim Hale suggested, in GW terms they're better adpated for the Empire.

PS: It's not very likely that the Perrys will extend their Agincourt range with plastics. There seems to be only a rather limited market for this period - at least if compared to Napoleonics, American Civil War and the whole War of the Roses thing.

[Captain Justice]

I like them too ,bought a box and really enjoyed putting them together.But noone around here plays

[jamesmanto]

I'd include them, but then my Medieval host is built up of so many different ranges over different years and is trying to be so many different things that I'm fairly forgiving. Older style armour just becomes lower status troops or contingents of mercenaries from more 'backwards' places like Germany.

I almost built a Bretonnian army back in the day, but then they went and changed it from that lovely high Medieval/Arthurian theme to whatever the hell it got turned into.

I got the jester though. He's a lot of fun. Hangs out with my troubadour knight fromt he Old Glory Norman Command pack.

James

[janner]

I would imagine the common soldier would have hand-me-downs aswell as 'second hand' clothes and armour, whatever they could find, unless their liege lord was rather well off 

cheers

James

Fair point James, but I do wonder about the maintenance of hand-me-downs by those troops who didn't have squires around to clean the rust off every day and how long the older pieces would survive the rigours of campaigning.

Plantagenet troops that went to France were overwhelmingly recruited through indenture and the size of a lord's retinue was significantly smaller than the troops they could raise for service in England/Wales through the honour/knight's fee system. So even prominent magnates had retinues of less than a few hundred men and even the princes of the blood relied on sub-indenturing to fill their ranks.

Anne Curry's study on Agincourt is very useful here, even if I would dispute some of her deductions on the size of the French army.

Of course, those magnates involved mobilised everyone they could for the Wars of the Roses, but, if one considers that the average blacksmith today can knock out helmets and bills, then it wouldn't be too large a leap to argue that troops wouldn't have to drag out granddads rusted lid with the badly worn leather liner.

Regards,

Stephen

[Arlequín]

Which would be fine if the average industrious medieval housewife hadn't discovered how useful mail was to scour pans etc. A lot of 'old' mail was made into scourers apparently. Stuff was certainly handed down as many muster rolls mention guys turning up with 'harness and not able to wear it' which implies it was a hand-me-down of the wrong size.

The idea of a 'Liege Lord' in England went out with the Black Death and as Jim Bibbly says, the troops that went to France in the latter half of the HYW were hired or 'retained'. Going to France was a career choice for many and I suspect may have been responsible for a decline in archery practice frequently legislated against once the wars were over - it was a skill Mr Average didn't see any point in acquiring or maintaining once they thought they couldn't 'make their fortune' in France. There later also appears to have been a lot of head-hunting for archers going on, as employers are recorded as presenting lavish gifts (fine bows and horses etc) to their men, presumably to keep them sweet and avoid them seeking service elsewhere.  Certainly there was a glut of them immediately after 1453 though and only the best were employed in various households.

As for WotR many lords kept 'ammunition' armour, relatively cheap stocks of helmets and various types of armour, that were not up to the same standard as more expensive custom made suits, but did the job, along with weapons to equip their tenants. Some of this kit has been shown to be older armour that has been customised (often just the visor being removed) for use by their men.

The core of any domestic army was made up of layer upon layer of contracts and sub-contracts between various individuals of differing social levels (some enterprising individuals were retained by more than one noble at the same time). Some contracts were very specific - x no. of men, equipped in a certain way, in certain proportions of type, while others were 'as many men as you can goodly make' i.e. anyone you can persuade to come. I suspect that 'Captains' troops, serving another personage under contract would wear their employer's livery (which explains why Buckingham bought a few thousand cheap livery jackets for his men).

[janner]

Which would be fine if the average industrious medieval housewife hadn't discovered how useful mail was to scour pans etc. A lot of 'old' mail was made into scourers apparently. Stuff was certainly handed down as many muster rolls mention guys turning up with 'harness and not able to wear it' which implies it was a hand-me-down of the wrong size.

Out they'd out grown it - much like a few wargamers and their favourate T-shirts 

[Spong]

I'm currently doing a similar fantasy/medieval crossover project with a basis on Perry Bretonnians. Although I love the Perry Agincourt to Orleans range I don't really feel it matches enough with their classic GW range, in fact I'm having a hard time finding any ranges that really go with the old Perry Bretonnians .

More on topic I agree with what has already been said about Perry WOTR being more at home in Empire armies than as Bretonnians.

[Arlequín]

Out they'd out grown it - much like a few wargamers and their favourate T-shirts 

 

Yes the 'exposed navel' look isn't a good one at conventions!