What's the difference: Colonial Adventures v VSF v. SteamPunk v Gothic Horror v?

[OSHIROmodels]

I don't know, RedOrc... I find the discussion riveting.

 

 

The funny thing is, if you type 'Victorian science fiction' into google the first entry is 'Steampunk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'

Now I know that Wiki isn't the best to go for concrete info but it certainly raised my eyebrow.

I personally prefer the term 'VSF' for what I do as I don't assoiciate 'Steampunk' with it. I see steampunk as a more a contemporary version of what VSF should be (nothing wrong with that at all).

cheers

James

[Skrapwelder]

In the style of Carnac the Magnificent:

A jaunty foreign lark,
a riveted, airborne barque,
and a pale damsel in the dark.

[Red Orc]

...
I personally prefer the term 'VSF' for what I do as I don't assoiciate 'Steampunk' with it. I see steampunk as a more a contemporary version of what VSF should be (nothing wrong with that at all)...

But, that's kinda my point. As you're doing it now, it is a contemporary version of what VSF should be. If VSF is then and Steampunk is now-does-then, it's all Steampunk now whether we like it or not. We're not in the Victorian era, and therefore what we do isn't VSF.

Of course, Wells went on to be Edwardian Science Fiction and then even Georgian Science Fiction, so he's not 'pure' VSF - 'The Land Ironclads' for instance was written after Victoria died, and I'd say that's as VSF as anything. And Verne doesn't count, being French and not a 'Victorian'; and of course neither does ERB as he was American, and didn't start writing until after the Victorian era, so really John Carter is a kind of retro-Pulp.

But this is my point about how we define things. Push to hard and the entire definition of VSF just vanishes in a puff of smoke (or maybe steam). I can't see that any definition that says 'this is VSF, that is Steampunk' really has any logical validity. So it just becomes about labelling what we like as one thing (generally, it seems, 'VSF') and what we don't like as something else (generally 'Steampunk'). The terms don't really have any other validity beyond our own likes and dislikes (which are all different anyway).

Me, I like airships - aeronefs, ballons, zeppelins, Martian skiffs, whathaveyou. Not interested in, for example, Papa Midnight's zombies (though they're brilliantly painted and done with both humour and a great deal of imagination, I hope we'd all agree; I pick Papa Midnight as an example because I think his work is brilliant, but it's not a direction I'm interested in going particularly) because I don't game zombies in Victorian London. Are Victorian Zombies 'Steampunk'? Well, they appear in 'Queen Victoria: Demon Hunter' (a modern work) and not in HG Wells, so I guess they (and Papa Midnight's gaming) must be Steampunk. But Verne (assuming we can call Verne 'VSF') has airships, so, hurrah, I'm VSF.

But my VSF airships owe a lot to Philip Reeve (Mortal Engines) and Chris Wooding (Retribution Falls). Definitely 'Steampunk' rather than 'VSF' books, I'd argue. But then again, I don't see Steampunk as a term of abuse.

And, Skrapwelder - nice ... err ... triplet I suppose, rather than couplet. That's about the size of it - especially the jaunty airborne barque bit! Gotta love a jaunty airborne barque I reckon.

[The_Beast]

Yes I agree that Steampunk is a throwback cousin to cyberpunk. Imagine William Gibson being born at the same time as Wells or Verne.

The "punk" part of the genre normally refers to a type of dystopian view of the future. When William Gibson wrote Neuromancer back in the eighties he viewed his future with drugs, bioimplants, virtual reality, artificial intelligence as a kind of nightmare world. Unfortunately for him a bunch of tech heads (cyber punks) in California thought it was cool and actually set out to try and create Gibson's nightmare future!

I think the movement had already started; I remember other similar stories of the period. However, don't have to imagine, as he tried it in The Differential Engine.

Steampunk is a dystopian future past.

VSF is deeply entrenched in the boundless enthusiasm of the late Victorian era when the world was opening up to the railway and steam ships. The time of the penny dailies described heroic feats of adventure and battles in places people could only dream of visiting. Gordon, Livingstone and others walked like giants on the world stage.

It was also when science and technology started to noticeably effect peoples lives and authors of the day like Wells, Verne, Conan Doyle etc. started to extrapolate these advances to their logical conclusions. I agree Wells was more pessimistic than Verne.

Personally I prefer VSF more than Steampunk. Also steampunk seems to fall into skirmish type gaming while with VSF I can have glorious epic battles with aeronef fleets or massed steam tank battles.

VSF can stretch into the Edwardian era culminating in WW1. After that I would call it the pulp period which then stretched to about 1950s.

cheers Fuzzy

Still disagreeing here; though your descriptions are perfectly understandable, I don't see them as being the norm. If there is one. Or particularly useful as measuring

By the way, let me side track this all a bit. When I started this thread, I certainly never intended to frustrate Mad Orc. I'm a silly fellow, but not suicidal. Much. ;->= 

I did want to point out folks are arguing about it on regular threads, and would rather have flames on the topic first, though I did say 'civil' has been the hallmark of these discussions. Also, let me point out folks voicing worries about threads and posts wandering off is something I take seriously. Forum members without self-discipline can make meandering discussions damned unpleasant.

Now, the forum delineates Gothic Horror from VSF from SteamPunk, relegated to Other Adventures. If someone says they wouldn't play it that way, 'it feels too SteamPunk', no argument. If someone questions it's inclusion in a forum section at all, I'd like some benchmarks before I post so I can use judgment. 

When I want to run a group of seldom-seen stunted fellows with proclivities to find riches deep underground and a knack for steam-driven engineering, I'm not sure I should be directed to a fantasy group. On the other hand, I wonder if I might sneak onto the more staid Colonial Adventures, given my Welsh background. 

Doug

[Fuzzywuzzieswiflasers]

Those vsf dwarves have a great bass section..but no top tenors.

Me sir... Baritone sir!  This is a welsh regiment though there are some foreigners.

Couldn't help myself

cheers Fuzzy the welshman

[OSHIROmodels]

But, that's kinda my point. As you're doing it now, it is a contemporary version of what VSF should be. If VSF is then and Steampunk is now-does-then, it's all Steampunk now whether we like it or not. We're not in the Victorian era, and therefore what we do isn't VSF.

I think perhaps my meaning got lost in the nuance of language (and the fact that I'm northern probably doesn't help). When I said contemporary I meant that the steampunkers are doing it with a leaning or bent towards a modern, or contemporary way of looking at the genre, whereas the VSF'ers are looking at it with a definite eye stuck in the in the late 19th century. To my mind, VSF'ers use 19th tech to simply solve 'future problems' as opposed to 'Steampunkers' using 19th tech to make what ever we fit any criteria,  which is how steampunk appears to me.

To be honest, I don't think anyone is completely right or wrong, and as time goes on this divide will get even more narrower and narrower, but it is certainly an interesting discussion nonetheless.

cheers

James

[Red Orc]

I think perhaps my meaning got lost in the nuance of language (and the fact that I'm northern probably doesn't help)...

Perhaps I didn't pick up your meaning old bean - still not sure I understand the distinction you're making; the fact that I suspect I'm more Northern than you might not help...

[OSHIROmodels]

Maybe part of what I'm trying to say is that 'Steampunk' is trendy and VSF is old school.

cheers

Jaems

[answer_is_42]

Maybe part of what I'm trying to say is that 'Steampunk' is trendy and VSF is old school.

That sums it up, nice and simple.

[Red Orc]

Sorry, I have no real understanding of what those terms mean in this context. It just seems to come down to 'VSF is what I like, Steampunk is what I don't like' - which is my point; they only seem to refer to opinions. And we all have different opinions, so our definitions of what's what will be different.

[Dr. The Viking]

I love these "tr00 kvlt" discussions. Seems to be one in every hobby.

(sorry if you do not understand the expression. )

[OSHIROmodels]

Certainly don't but please feel free to enlighten us  

And we all have different opinions, so our definitions of what's what will be different.

This is certainly the case with everything around us, but definition is what makes the world go round   (almost)

Steampunk as a term has (to my mind) only come into use in recent years and has taken a different angle to what VSF is or was.

How many 30-40+ Steampunkers do you see as opposed to VSF'ers?

I completely understand the fact that everything we do can be called contemporary but I feel it's taking a little bit of the spirit out of what we do.

cheer

James

[The_Beast]

New to me, but transliterates to 'true cult', right?

Doug

[Dr. The Viking]

Yes indeed.

I think that though some of the points in this discussion are valid and interesting, you end discussing what is "true" and what is not. Which to me at least is of very little importance as long as what you're looking at is good. 

Awwwhr never mind! 

Now imagine two teenagers having the same sort of discussion about metal music:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tr00%20Kvlt%20Metal

 

[rob_the_robgoblin]

Wow that's sad, they can't even use real words.