Some question regarding War of the Roses

[Welf VIII.]

First of all, which miniatures to use to represent certain uncommon troops:

Welsh Longbbowmen and Welsh Spearmen:

I am currently considering to use Longbowmen and Spearmen from Perrys' Agincourt to Orlean range to reflect their perhaps dated and poorer equipment.

Irish Kern and Skirmishers:

No real idea as Dark Age stuff seems a bit too far off the road

Breton Skirmishers:

No idea




Liveries for two Lancastrian nobles, Owen Tudor and James Butler Earl of Wilthire and Ormond,  Freezywater's books are of no further help here unfortunately.

Owen's coat of arms (some replace the silver with ermine)


James Butler's


At the moment I would give Owen's men a plain red, while James' would be clothed in blue and yellow. But in many of the cases the colours of the liveries had nothing to do with the actual coat of arms. Any suggestions?

[Arlequín]

By this time the Welsh weren't very different to their English counterparts for the most part and the higher up the social scale you go the less difference there would be. Their equipment was probably no more dated than those of levies from the Midlands and Home Counties either, so perhaps mixing in earlier figures might be an option to represent any levied contingent?

The Irish changed very little between the Dark Ages and the 16th Century, if illustrations are anything to go by. Troops from the Pale would have been very 'English', while the 'naked Irish' would be in their traditional saffron coloured 'night shirt', with some individuals wearing helmets and armour, depending on status and wealth. I'd use Dark Ages Irish like the Gripping Beast ones, perhaps removing the obviously 'too Roman' or 'too Norse' looking ones.

The Bretons and French were reported to have been mercenaries and 'gaol-scourings', I don't recall them being described as anything else outside of various army lists, so a mix of spears, polearms and crossbows should be fine. I'm presuming that equipment would have been bought for them on the cheap, out of the money loaned to Margaret.

As for liveries, the Irish, French and Bretons wouldn't have been wearing them probably. Owen Tudor apparently used the red dragon, highlighted in gold, with green and white as his livery... may be Tudor propaganda though! Jasper Tudor's may have been the same or possibly blue and white, a common Lancastrian combination. Ormond's I've seen in several colours, one of which was the blue and yellow of the family arms. Liveries weren't governed by rules like coats of arms, so they could change often over a period.

To be honest the period is a bit of a research minefield, so you can rest easy that your research is probably as valid as anyone else's. 

[Captain Blood]

To be honest the period is a bit of a research minefield, so you can rest easy that your research is probably as valid as anyone else's. 

Well said, Jim. Just make it up, because nobody actually knows the truth on most of this stuff. Just a lot of conflicting evidence.

[Welf VIII.]

Thank you both very much. I am glad you both feel almost the same way as I do. I think the best example for changing the colour of liveries is good old Thomas Howard, he is reported to have used red, blue and black for different occasions, so one could assume others used to change their colours as often as he did.

Gripping beast for the Irish is a good idea.

[NurgleHH]

There is some nice stuff from Crusader, have a look

[Mr.J]

I'd also second Crusader, very nice minis.

[Arlequín]

Thank you both very much. I am glad you both feel almost the same way as I do. I think the best example for changing the colour of liveries is good old Thomas Howard, he is reported to have used red, blue and black for different occasions, so one could assume others used to change their colours as often as he did.

I don't think its too much of a stretch to think that a new title or award might prompt a 'change of image', Edward IV changed his to add 'the Sun in Splendour' as a badge after Mortimer's cross. There's other more subtle reasons I can think of too. Edward and his brothers all seem to have used Claret (Murray) and Blue, perhaps as a symbol of unity, while their father appears to have used blue and white.

Troops were often hurriedly raised for a campaign and just as hurriedly they'd need livery jackets. What do you do when you find the local mercer has no stock of whatever colour you need (Or if he has a large amount of another colour going very cheap)? You can't really say "Sorry, I can't make the campaign, there's no red cloth till next month", or "Dude there's no way I'm paying a shilling a yard, you're on your own", you go with what you can. That might even explain why Oxford's men at Barnet were apparently mistaken for the enemy... Orange, or Orange/Red mistaken for Claret and Blue takes some doing (unless they were shooting blind at what they heard of course, or the story itself is untrue).

Some lords were retained by other lords and higher nobles and their indentures specify 'ordain them jackets of my livery', or some similar entry, even though the person in question might have his own. So you might get somebody like William Herbert providing his troops to Edward IV, in Edward's Livery, but bearing Herbert's badge, marking them as his contingent in the King's service. Margaret issued badges of the Prince of Wales's feathers to troops raised in his name, presumably these were then put onto their existing livery jackets, which would likely have been of a variety of colours, the opposite effect to that of Herbert.

Then you have people like Warwick, who 'stole' their badge(s) for various reasons. The Beauchamps used the Bear and ragged staff as a badge and this became associated with them (and Warwickshire). Warwick came from a 'nouveau-rich' background and appropriated the badge in right of his marriage to Anne Beauchamp, perhaps to imply continuity, or he might just have thought it was a cool badge.

I've seen the Neville's and Percy's both being represented by red/black. As these guys were feuding for most of the 15th Century, would having the same livery colours be a tad confusing? I'm not suggesting they had 'home' and 'away' liveries, but something doesn't ring true here. I can see John Neville using 'Percy colours', for his stint as Earl of Northumberland, as a way of ingratiating himself with the locals (doesn't appear to have worked mind), but otherwise I'd expect some difference. If so, then he must have used a different livery before this.

Obviously some people were associated with set colours and badges, which appear to be borne by several generations. The red/black livery, white swan and Stafford knot of the various Dukes of Buckingham etc, springs to my mind. Others appear to be associated with set colours at a given point in time, or over a fixed period of time. A few of Richard Duke of York's generation appear to have favoured blue and white for some reason.

Like a lot of what comes out of this period, there seems to be no apparent rule of thumb, or consistency. Traditionally where you find a noble's crest, the colour(s) of the mantle on the helmet are supposed to represent the livery colours. Sometimes they match what we presume their men wore, sometimes they don't. The 'supporters' of the shield, or the emblem forming the top of the helmet, on the crest, are supposed to represent the animal(s) etc appearing on the livery standard, again sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.       

The only thing I can say with regard to liveries, with any sort of certainty, is that the use of more than two colours in a livery marks it as a 'Tudor era thing' and even then some old fuddy duddies, like our friend Howard, stuck to his old school two-tone colour scheme.

[Captain Blood]

I expect it all made perfect sense at the time 

[Mr.J]

I must say that this is a very interesting and insightful subject.

[Arlequín]

I expect it all made perfect sense at the time  

So much so that they didn't feel the need to explain it in any great detail. I can't believe they didn't think that, at some future point in an age of TO&Es and OCD gamers, someone might have wanted to know exactly what they meant. I mean a 'plomp of spears' wtf?!  

I must say that this is a very interesting and insightful subject.

 

It is... unfortunately 'insight' translates as 'my best guess' from where I'm sitting.  

[H.M.Stanley]

Ha ha - i love the idea of a "home and away" kit, not that you were suggesting it it [chuckle]

One of my favourite periods and my Percy contingent is next up once the SCW is completed (i'm down to 5 x vehicles and a couple of figures)

[Silent Invader]

  I'm appreciating this thread too.