Richard III Appeal 24-25 Aug

[Patrice]

527 years in a car park, without buying a ticket? If they take him out, it will cost him a lot of money!

[Welf VIII.]

The search goes on and confirms that they have located the Grey Friars Church.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/search-for-richard-iii-confirms-they-have-located-the-long-lost-church-of-the-grey-friars

Still think there is only a slight chance they might fight good king Dickon. Should they find him, I would strongly suggest a catholic funeral in York.

[Atheling]

527 years in a car park, without buying a ticket? If they take him out, it will cost him a lot of money!

Good job it wasn't an NHS hospital carpark then.....   

But I digress..... back OT next time 

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

Should they find him, I would strongly suggest a catholic funeral in York.

It would be ironic if he was interred in the Henry VII chapel at Westminster Abbey. 

[Welf VIII.]

They might have found him:

http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/richard-iii-press-conference-2013-live-updates-from-11.00am

[Atheling]

They might have found him:

http://www2.le.ac.uk/news/blog/2012/september/richard-iii-press-conference-2013-live-updates-from-11.00am

Holy crap!!

Not enough convincing evidence as of yet but it is promising. I'd be interested in the DNA specifically. The true King of England, if you like, who lives in Australia now.

"A York! A York!"

Darrell.

[Welf VIII.]

I think that one died a few months ago. But it might interest you, that some families from the lower nobility of Northern Germany can trace their ancestors back to the three sisters of Tostig.

BTW: Is it just me or are the majority of those interested in WotR actually supporting the York?

PS: Just read Thomas Penn's "Winter King" about the reign of Henry VII. What ever Richard actually did, he could not have been as bad as Henry Stalin.

[janner]

BTW: Is it just me or are the majority of those interested in WotR actually supporting the York?

Being a westcountry man, I'm firmly with the House of Lancaster

[Arlequín]

BTW: Is it just me or are the majority of those interested in WotR actually supporting the York?

PS: Just read Thomas Penn's "Winter King" about the reign of Henry VII. What ever Richard actually did, he could not have been as bad as Henry Stalin.

It's the 'under-dog' factor... like many Napoleonic players going for French Armies and many ACW players for the Confederates. I'll admit to being Lancastrian in my sympathies, but a Ricardian in terms of the end of the wars... 

The Tudors were pretty much forced to consolidate their dynasty by rubbishing Richard's claim and by absorbing both the Lancastrian and Yorkist factions into theirs... hence the Red/White Tudor Rose and the marriage to Anne Plantagenet. A degree of ruthless suppression was also required, due to the weakness of the Tudor claim to the throne, Henry was perhaps the lowest on the list of succession.

Richard III was a man of his time, for all that entails, although his actions during his lifetime hint at a sense of honour and a conscience, along with the appreciation that sometimes ruthlessness was necessary. He appears to have been loved in the North, particularly in York, which given that the Yorkist's main power base was originally in the Welsh Marches and the North was largely Lancastrian in its sympathies, was no mean feat!

The mind boggles at the possibilities of Richard III defeating Henry Tudor though... no Reformation, closer ties with Spain and the Empire, against France... English Wars of Religion and continual wars with a Protestant Scotland. For a small island, the effect on the history of Western Europe was potentially quite significant!

[dm]

the evidence from the remains is looking good so far and so is the location of the burial but will wait to see what comes of it after all the evaluations with fingers crossed.

Ok Richard is still portrayed as a monster and a dictator in some historical accounts but if you look at him in the framework of the time i dont think he was much or any worse than any other monarch of the period.

[Atheling]

the evidence from the remains is looking good so far and so is the location of the burial but will wait to see what comes of it after all the evaluations with fingers crossed.

Ok Richard is still portrayed as a monster and a dictator in some historical accounts but if you look at him in the framework of the time i dont think he was much or any worse than any other monarch of the period.

It is certain that with the Woodville's at the helm of government his life would have been very short had he not taken the action he did re: capturing the heir to be Edward and his brother and doing away with them.

Very sad, but as DM says very true of Late Medieval England at the time.

Darrell.

[Welf VIII.]

@Arlequin: so you always make sure, you end up on the losing side?

Henry VII married Elisabeth not Anne.

I think both Richards (Gloucester and his father York) seem to have been very good administrators. And the reforms of Richards parliament are simply amazing.

He might have been ruthless at times, but who wasn't at that time? As for the princes, we don't know for sure and what if they had shown signs of behaving like Joffrey Baratheon?

But we don't know, what would have happened afterwards, may be one of his successor would have still joined the protestant side, perhaps with bit less opportunistic motivation creating something real and not this Anglican Church chimera.
First of all his marriage with Joana of Portugal would have taken place and perhaps he would have invaded France (which is always a good thing).

PS: I do think the marriage between Edward IV and Elisabeth Woodville was not lragal as Edward already had a marriage contract with Lady Elenor (born Talbot, widowed Butler), the daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury. The way the Tudor propaganda tried to change her name into one elisabeth Lucy or Wayte gives a hint, that there was something substantial behind it.

[Phil Robinson]

A Porsche, A Porsche! my kingdom for a Porsche! Well someone had to say it

[Stuart]

Interesting news eh and even if it's not Richard it's definitely worthy of a documentary.

As an offshoot question;

I know that when Henry Tudor came to light as the leading opponent of Richard III he described himself by his peerage title ‘Richmond’, and not as ‘Henry Tudor’. He was always called Richmond in subsequent sixteenth-century accounts of his life before becoming king, including Shakespeare's Richard III. ‘Tydder’ was used by Richard, and subsequently Perkin Warbeck, to draw attention to his allegedly low social origins which no doubt explains why Henry and his successors avoided using the word.

But what would they (the house of Tudor) have referred to themselves as? I know that previously they would have been proud Lancastrians or Yorkists but would people under Richard have considered that they were under a Yorkist rule or a Plantagenet dynasty or is that more something that has taken hold in more recent times?

Still very good news and a welcome distratction in my now extended 'working' lunch break (spreadsheet minimised ready to be clicked into action )

[dm]

If it is Richard and it could well be taking into consideration the combination of the location of the body within the church, the wounds and indication of a spinal condition..... they may have found their man. DNA will be the way forward if the bones are in as good a condition as they are reputed to be and any modern blood lineage can be traced.

The trauma wounds spoken about in the press release on the skeletal remains also suggest the individual was not wearing full armour when they occurred but as at Towton individuals were perhaps dispatched after fighting took place or whilst trying to evade capture and or soon after capture and armour would have been removed/stripped by the winning side prior to execution.

If it proves to be Richard it may paint a whole new picture of his death and a barbed arrow head still lodged in the back could help explain his death but it could also show contempt for his remains after death which is reported in some of the history of the event.

The recent survey of the surrounding area now shows that the traditional site for the battle of Bosworth Field was not in the location previously thought but a few miles down the road and that the largest amount of Late Medieval artillery ever detected on any battle site in the UK was also located during the survey.