Gewalthaufen Blog Updated, Planning for Battle of Fornovo

[Atheling]

Hi,

Just to let you know that the planning for the Battle of Fornovo Demo game has begun and that you can start to read a little about some of the troop types on my blog, Gewalthaufen here:

http://gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/battle-of-fornovo-partizan-buys.html

I'd love to hear what you guys and gals think.

Darrell.

[Sirolf]

You have a great plan! If I can give you some advice, you should look into this:

http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/store/home.php?cat=124

They fit great with the Perrys and they have a couple models that the Perrys don't have, like the Elmetti and the papal guards.
The Elmetti where typical of late 15th C and early 16th C Italian armies and you could say that they where the "coustilliers" of the condottieri... plus the models are great!!
The papal guards are really nice models that would look great guarding the carroccio and its priests!!

I have personally found that some Mirliton Italian knights fit good into Perry's horses with minimum work, and look great as Italian cavalry:

http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php?pName=mounted-trumpeter-and-standard-bearer&cName=fantasy-2528mm-humans

http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php?pName=knights-with-heavy-armour-and-lance&cName=fantasy-2528mm-humans

[janner]

Great project Darrell 

[Atheling]

You have a great plan! If I can give you some advice, you should look into this:

http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/store/home.php?cat=124

They fit great with the Perrys and they have a couple models that the Perrys don't have, like the Elmetti and the papal guards.......  ......The papal guards are really nice models that would look great guarding the carroccio and its priests!!

Yeah, I've been watching the development of the TAG Italian Wars range for a few years now with some interest. I think the sculptor is ill and the range has been stopped in it's tracks for now at least. It is a beautifull range and  you're right, some Papal guards wouldn't go amiss despite the Pope not being there. They could simply be looking after the Papal legate  .

The Elmetti where typical of late 15th C and early 16th C Italian armies and you could say that they where the "coustilliers" of the condottieri... plus the models are great!!

I've got my eyes on the models already. I'll probably ask Pete at TAG for a sample of one of each of the types I'm looking for.

I have personally found that some Mirliton Italian knights fit good into Perry's horses with minimum work, and look great as Italian cavalry:

http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php?pName=mounted-trumpeter-and-standard-bearer&cName=fantasy-2528mm-humans

http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php?pName=knights-with-heavy-armour-and-lance&cName=fantasy-2528mm-humans

I'm afraid that Mirliton really aren't my cup of tea. They have had their day but don't measure up to sculpts such as that of Nick Collier and the Perry's IMHO.

You have made some good suggestions and I'll be looking again at the TAG range.

Darrell.

[Atheling]

Great project Darrell 

It's certainly requiring a lot of research, much more than anticipated, but that just makes it all the more interesting  .

Darrell.

[Sirolf]

I'm afraid that Mirliton really aren't my cup of tea. They have had their day but don't measure up to sculpts such as that of Nick Collier and the Perry's IMHO.

I know what you mean, I myself was really reluctant at giving it a shot, since I was already familiar with their sculpts (I had previously ordered some of their civilians to use as background). I decided to order two of their knights (the two with the crest on their armet) only to take away the crest and use it with the perry's plastic, but when I got them, I was positively surprised.

The men in full plate and with the crest on their helmet look pretty good in quality, and contrary to what I thought they fit pretty good with the perrys.

I always try to give some variation in my mounted men at arms. I love the plastic kit from the perrys but there is only one kind of milanese armor, so I always try to find suitable models to give some variation, and I was happy to see that those two particular mirliton's knights fit.

I also found that some of the Venexia Miniatures men at arms with perry's heads could do the trick.

With some research you will see that Italian men at arms almost always used Italian armors (which makes sense). You could perhaps fit some gothic armors in there, but certainly not english ones, which is the one the perrys seem to prefer!

I found it particularly hard to find Italian knights on foot. The only ones I know that will fit good with the Perrys are these: http://www.steelfistminiatures.com/products/15th_century_nobles but still haven't bought any!!

[Byblos]

Hi !

Mirliton Renaissance are very beautiful miniatures , and very accurate 

[Atheling]

Nice work.

As explained earlier, I'm not much of a Mirliton fan  .

The Perry miniatures for the Late 15thC don't lack accuracy either. Remember the French were quite involved as well as the Italians and that armours both Milanese and from Augsburg were considered to be the best by all parties involved in the war.

Darrell.

[Sirolf]

It's true what you say, Norimberga was Milan's first rival, and it wasn't so uncommon to see Italian knights wearing gothic armor.

Nevertheless in most of the 15th C art that I saw here in Italy, Italian knights are always depicted wearing Italian armor. That doesn't mean they never wore gothic ones, but that milanese armor was definitely the most common.

What I found problematic is that most of the Perry miniatures (being inspired from the War of the Roses) wear English armor (I think it was made in Greenwich if I don't mistake). That style of armor would have been almost exclusively wore by English knights, and whether you could give it to some French ones, it would look really out of place in Italian units. IMO.

I hope I am being helpful!

Good luck with your project!

[Atheling]

It's true what you say, Norimberga was Milan's first rival, and it wasn't so uncommon to see Italian knights wearing gothic armor.

Quite.

Nevertheless in most of the 15th C art that I saw here in Italy, Italian knights are always depicted wearing Italian armor. That doesn't mean they never wore gothic ones, but that milanese armor was definitely the most common.

I agree with you on that.

What I found problematic is that most of the Perry miniatures (being inspired from the War of the Roses) wear English armor (I think it was made in Greenwich if I don't mistake). That style of armor would have been almost exclusively wore by English knights, and whether you could give it to some French ones, it would look really out of place in Italian units. IMO.

Maybe the Perry's will do some dismounted/mounted men-at-arms- maybe we should ask. I'm going to  .

I hope I am being helpful!

Of course, any help that I get in this matter is very much appreciated  .

Good luck with your project!

I'm going to need it  .

Especially where Italian heraldry is concerned  .

Darrell.

[Sirolf]

Especially where Italian heraldry is concerned  .

I personally started looking for heraldry in museums. I have the chance to live two hours from Florence, so a quick visit to a couple palaces and the Uffizzi galleries were really useful for me!

I also found this book extremely helpful!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/8884742501/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00

It is a book about the battle of Anghiari and has plenty of illustrations and details about the heraldry of many Condottieri companies and Florentine families.

Problem is that it might be a little too early for the battle of Fornovo, and that the forces there weren't Florentine but mainly Venetians and Milanese.

I could advise you to get this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Fornovo-1495-Frances-fighting-Campaign/dp/1855325225/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347567432&sr=1-1&keywords=fornovo

I found it a pretty interesting lecture, especially for the actual forces on the field and the battle itself, however it doesn't give many details on heraldry.

Maybe you can contact this user:

http://thegreatitalianwars.blogspot.com/

He has some pretty sweet standards and seems to have an extended knowledge on Italian heraldry, especially for the period of Fornovo....

[Atheling]

I personally started looking for heraldry in museums. I have the chance to live two hours from Florence, so a quick visit to a couple palaces and the Uffizzi galleries were really useful for me!

You're very lucky to live so near such a great city- I visited the place when I was at art college and was blown away by it's beauty. It's quite a long way from the North of England 

I also found this book extremely helpful!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/8884742501/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00


It is a book about the battle of Anghiari and has plenty of illustrations and details about the heraldry of many Condottieri companies and Florentine families.

Problem is that it might be a little too early for the battle of Fornovo, and that the forces there weren't Florentine but mainly Venetians and Milanese.

If only it was written in English..... yes, I'm one of those Englishmen who can't speak another language! Shamefull really  .  It's not so expensive so I may hunt a copy down anyway as I might be able to decipher it.

I could advise you to get this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Fornovo-1495-Frances-fighting-Campaign/dp/1855325225/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347567432&sr=1-1&keywords=fornovo

I found it a pretty interesting lecture, especially for the actual forces on the field and the battle itself, however it doesn't give many details on heraldry.

Yeah, it's one of the better Osprey Campaign books. I've owned it for a while.

Maybe you can contact this user:

http://thegreatitalianwars.blogspot.com/

He has some pretty sweet standards and seems to have an extended knowledge on Italian heraldry, especially for the period of Fornovo....

Ah, Pete. I'm already in contact with him.

Thanks for all your suggestions, they are all very much appreciated  .

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

An impressive project to be working on there and I wish you luck!

I don't know how useful they might be, or even what they look like in the lead, but Steel Fist do a very small range of dismounted men at arms.

Reading a language not your own is never easy, but it is easier than having to write/speak it. You'll be surprised at how easy it becomes to at least get the gist of what is being said and there's always Google Translate to help out... although it often gives literal translations, rather than colloquial ones. Despite that it can surprise you sometimes. Tables are much easier to comprehend than text too. Worst that could happen is that you can look at the pictures and impress your friends when they see an Italian title on the book shelf.



Best suggestion in English I can give is 'Mercenaries and their Masters' by Michael Mallett. It has a small group of references to Fornovo, but its value is as the best coverage of the Condottieri in the Renaissance, as well as Italian Warfare in general. Recommended and it's cheaper than the Osprey Book! 

There is also this, which is the classic work on the Venetian military and has a great section on the Renaissance. Knocking on a bit now and a bit of a dry read to say the least, but it's full of good stuff if you can find it!

There's also this. I don't own it, haven't seen it, so I can't say how useful it will be. If it's any sort of recommendation, I plan to get it.

As for the Osprey Book... worth getting if it's cheap, but lacks a fair bit of detail on the armies involved. It's a good starter, like most Osprey titles, but Nicolle knows a little about a lot, judging by the spread of titles his written and for this sort of thing you need someone who knows a lot about a little.

http://www.condottieridiventura.it/tabellestoria/1491.htm - is a database of condottieri and the battles they fought in, so should be useful for minor commanders etc. The Fornovo entry is quite impressive. The drawback is that it renders French names into Italian names sometimes.

Info on the French is really difficult to come by and when it is available, it's quite vague. The most common thing you'll come across is the idea that the army didn't evolve from 1445, so the most common rendition of the Ordonnance Companies is that of the Ordonnance of 1445... the army did evolve and change, it's just hard to find out how and what. I'm pretty clueless as what to suggest for this... maybe the near-contemporary biography of Chevalier Bayard might give some insight, but I gather it's very much a dated 'Boys Own' style of writing, given that it was first printed in 1527 (iirc).

If I come across anything that might be useful to you myself, while researching the Burgundian Succession Wars, I'll drop you a PM.

Good Luck! 

[Atheling]

Firstly, Sirolf, Arlequin and Bylbos, I will be coming back to what you were both saying some time soon. Yet again, I'm very pressed for time, but, should have time to say that I've just invested in more Perry stuff (the stuff I forgot to buy at Partizan) and some pieces from The Assault Group too:

The Swiss Guard, as someone suggested will be keeping the Papal Legates company. The Elmeti, placed on Perry horses will be keeping their more noble comrades company in the first unit of Italian mounted Men at Arms.

More later.... to answer some questions and hopefully with the addition of some paint  .

Darrell.

[Sirolf]

Can't wait to see them painted! Good luck!