Ski warfare in the Russo-Swedish war of 1808-09 ?

[Grimnir]

Does someone have information about the usage ski troops in the Russo-Swedish war of 1808-09? Did soldiers or finnish guerillas used them at all in this conflict? (I know about the Norwegian ski companies of the Norwegian-Swedish War)

[traveller]

I have a number of Swedish books on the subject but I have not seen any mentioning of ski troops. However, a quick google search on "1808-09 års krig skidor" gave me this:

http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/skida/S-AM/AM.127675?also_without_pictures=1&items_per_page=15&name=%22Krig%22&owners%5BAFM%5D=true&search_context=1&count=110&pos=11

Ski's used by the ski detachment of the infantry regiment of Värmland during that war. I also found it mentioned that the "Kajana and Savolax jaegers were good skiiers"

[Hammers]

I know Sami irregulars used skis to. I should be able to find several sources for you.

Yes, and the Värmland regiment had units on skis.

And Aminoffs Savolax jaegers on skis, which is a Finnish regiment, of course.

In fact I think most troops on skis would be considered jaegers.

The 'Finnish' skis seems to have been the most common, which is where you have one longer running ski and one shorter kick ski.

[Dolmot]

The use of skis in that conflict would have been limited by timing. Most fighting on Finnish soil took place in summer 1808, which isn't exactly popular time for skiing. Hostilities should have ended on 19 November 1808 in the convention of Olkijoki, where an armistice was agreed on. Proper winter battles would have been limited to only a few months in the very beginning of the war. However...

• Skiing was a popular form of hunting and moving around. It's very conceivable that especially irregular units moved on skis when possible. On the other hand, a 1.5m long musket isn't very practical for actually fighting on skis.
• The border was first crossed on February 21st 1808 without a formal declaration of war by that time. There was minor fighting and even capture of Loviisa (a small town) already on the first day.
• Swedish army was mostly retreating with scorched earth tactics thus avoiding major conflicts in winter. Cities in southern Finland were captured in February-March without much opposition.
• Spring 1808 was cold. Carl Magnus Möllersvärd wrote in his journal on 13 March "The temperature was -40 °C. We had to tear apart several barns and make campfires to warm our miserable frozen bodies." There surely was enough snow but maybe less interest in fighting.
• There is a note that in battle of Kalmanlahti, 11. March, captain Aminoff of Savolax forces was ordering his troops to ski to Leppävirta in order to hamper Russians. Actual fighting apparently consisted of random gunfire over lake ice. I don't know if skiing were really involved in the battle itself.
• The battle of Siikajoki, 18. April was among the first notable battles (as in "hundreds, maybe thousands of men") but to me it sounds late for using skis.

...and then it was already late spring/summer. By first snow of the next winter, fighting in Finland was over.

So fighting on skis could have taken place, maybe, but only in tiny initial battles involving no more than a few dozen men. The type of skis used back then was indeed a pair of two different roles. Matched pairs only became popular when skiing was turned into a sport on ice and prepared tracks in the late 19th century.

That's my best guess using quick sources. Maybe more details could be scraped from journals and books but I wouldn't expect the bottom line to change that much.

[Hammers]

I thought the Savolax Jaegers used shorter, rifled muskets? What so you know about that, Dolmot?

[Dolmot]

I thought the Savolax Jaegers used shorter, rifled muskets? What so you know about that, Dolmot?

Probably nothing off the top of my head. I'm not enough of a military nut (or historical gamer) to memorise such things about individual units. If you have a literary source for that, I'll definitely accept it.

Sounds like more viable a combination, though.

[Hammers]

Probably nothing off the top of my head. I'm not enough of a military nut (or historical gamer) to memorise such things about individual units. If you have a literary source for that, I'll definitely accept it.

Sounds like more viable a combination, though.

I read a short notice to that fact somewhere. I'll see if a I can find it again...

EDIT: I don't know if you read Swedish, but I found this. Scroll down to page 9.

[Grimnir]

Great! If you have more informations,  keep 'em coming 
I have ordered a copy of John Screen's "The Army in Finland" yesterday to learn more about this conflict. It seems to be especially interesting for small scale battles and skirmishes.


Ski types
So the Finnish skis are the same as the "Østerdal" type, used with one stick? http://www.elverumske.no/esc_english/skies_and_ski_equipment.htm


Rifles
With my English and German I can only understand fragments of Swedish. The Swedish Wikipedia entry for Sissi (militär) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissi_%28milit%C3%A4r%29 mentions a "savolaxstudsaren" which seems to be a short rifled musket (in German this type of weapon is called "Stutzen").
 

Reguljära sissi eller jägartrupper har funnits i Finland sedan 1770-talet då Göran Magnus Sprengtporten utvecklade Savolax fotjägare. Dessa trupper var för tiden speciellt utrustade. Bland annat utvecklades små patrulltält och specialvapnet "savolaxstudsaren", en räfflad studsare med cirka 20 millimeters kaliber. Under 1808-09 års krig blev Kajanajägarna kända för att vara duktiga skidlöpare, även Savolaxjägarna utmärkte sig vid ett flertal strider i rollen som lätt infanteri och spaningstrupp.

The uniform plates (hardly an authoritive source , I know...) usually show the Savolax jaegers with rifles.

Sami irregulars
... that sounds interesting. I would be grateful for some information about these, too.

[Hammers]

Reguljära sissi eller jägartrupper har funnits i Finland sedan 1770-talet då Göran Magnus Sprengtporten utvecklade Savolax fotjägare. Dessa trupper var för tiden speciellt utrustade. Bland annat utvecklades små patrulltält och specialvapnet "savolaxstudsaren", en räfflad studsare med cirka 20 millimeters kaliber. Under 1808-09 års krig blev Kajanajägarna kända för att vara duktiga skidlöpare, även Savolaxjägarna utmärkte sig vid ett flertal strider i rollen som lätt infanteri och spaningstrupp.

Regular sissi or jaeger troops have existed in Finland since the 1770ies when Göran Magnus Sprengtporten established the Savolax jaegers on foot. These troops had rather advanced equipment for their time. Among other things small patrol tents were developed as well as the specialist weapon the 'Savolaxstudsare' (Savolax carbine), a rifled 20mm short carbine. During the war of 1908-09 the Kanjana Jaegers proved themselves as accomplished skiers. So did the Savolax jaegers, who made a name for themselves as light infantry and scouts in several battles.

I know I have seen a source talking about Sami scouts on skis and in reindeer sulky... I shall have to root about.

[Grimnir]

The scenario book "1808 - The Last Summer" by Sword and Sabre Publishing gives the following proprotions for rifles in jaeger units:

3rd battallion Tavastehus regt.: 100% rifles
Nyland jaeger battalion: 50:50
Savolax jaeger regt.: 2/3 rifles, 1/3 muskets
Karelian jaeger corps: 2/3 rifles, 1/3 muskets

[Conquistador]

Wow, I had no idea this war existed but the snippets located in this thread (that I can read/understand) once agin reinforces the thought, "If someone on LAF doesn't know it/know where to find it, it doesn't exist..."

Hyperbole I know... but not by much!

Gracias,

Glenn

[Dolmot]

Wow, I had no idea this war existed but the snippets located in this thread (that I can read/understand) once agin reinforces the thought, "If someone on LAF doesn't know it/know where to find it, it doesn't exist..."

Most wars have to take place somewhere (excluding the abstract ones like the war on drugs). Considering the wide demographics of modern forums, there's a good chance that any given conflict happened on someone's back yard.

The 1808-1809 war, curiously called the Finnish War, took place on mine - quite literally. There are fortifications and battlefields dating back to it all around southern Finland. I used to live about 2 km away from one. There's a small memorial and a plaque marking it. Of course, it was also an important historical event, and it brought forth this piece of poetry by our national poet. (Who wrote in Swedish. Go figure.) Names like Sandels, Döbeln and Sven are familiar characters in multiple contexts, especially beer.

Obviously the Winter War and Continuation War have even more pronounced status, but those took place on the Karelian Isthmus so you won't find many memorials of battles within the current territory. The Civil War was a chaotic affair with lots of ugly skirmishes and hardly anything that could be called a battle. It's a touchy subject as well. Consequently, the Finnish War might be the most prominent conflict around here when it comes to historical landmarks in everyday life. It's also distant enough to make it a safe topic for wargaming, unlike the 20th century conflicts which are still living history and contain disputed aspects.

Anyway, for a nice take on the 1808-1809 war, see the reports by these guys. I believe you can contact them for any sorts of tips quite easily.