Russo-Swedish War of 1808-1809 or "Finnish War"

[Pancratist]

While on the subject of 1808-1809; Does anyone know anything about the uniforms at Sävar in 1809 (one of the largest and bloodiest battles)?

Traveller provided some excellent (for me new) info on the Södermanland regts uniforms. Västmanland wore the 1807, which is clear from Ljunggren. I am guessing that Kronobergs and Jönköpings wore the 1807 uniform as well, but I am not 100% on that... The good thing about those regts is at least that the Swedish figs available from Perry can be used.

Livgrenadjärregementet had the 1806 model uniform, blue with red facings, with a particular type of hat. It seems relatively easy to convert the standard figures to look like these, with some greenstuffing on the hat to create a crest.

However, the Engelbrechtenska regt and Drottningens livregemente pose all sorts of problems! I think I know how the jackets should look (Blue with red/yellow facings). But what about the hats? Earlier, they are portrayed with bicornes (Ebens drawings). Does this mean that they changed these to guard hats (kaskar) with crests, such as Livgardet used (who also used bicornes previously)?

Figures to use for Livgardet, Engelbrechtenska and Drottningens livregt. are more difficult to find, but possibly they could be converted with greenstuff too. However, the guard hat seems a little bit more difficult to do than the Livgren regt. (if indeed they used that hat...)

One could always hope that the Perrys will fill in some of the gaps in their range with all these odd guards regiments and artillery limbers, mounted officers, generals, etc. Converting whole brigades of hundreds of figures is not really practical...

[traveller]

Pancratist,

interesting questions! My conclusions:

1. Kronoberg Regiment: According to the regimental history written by Tidander they had the grey uniform in 1808-1809.

2. Jönköping Regiment: Bellander wrote a special article on this regiment and while they had a lighter blue uniform during the campaign in Pomerania 1805-1807 they changed first to the dark blue m/1806 and then to the grey m/1807 uniform with blue facings. This is also confirmed by actual uniforms preserved in the regimental museum:



3. Livgrenadjär Regiment and Svea Livgarde: If you do not want to convert I can recommend Eagle Miniatures. The detail is very good but the anatomy of the Perry miniatures is better. I like them anyway and have painted up them for Leipzig 1813.
Here is a comparison with a Perry model:

Another option is this company:
https://digitalsculpt.se/produkt/28-mm-swedish-guard-infantry-group-1805-1815/

4. Engelbrecht/Drottningens: It does not seem to be an answer available for the headgear during the 1808-1809 period. I am not 100% sure on Ebens drawings but they are more or less the same as the ones by Gillberg:


Anyway, I went for the bicorne. Perry has some quite useful models for this:
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product/sax-2-musketeers-marching-full-dress-1806/
My version for Engelbrecht

[Pancratist]

Hi,

Thats great info, and beautiful work on the figures and flags. Thank you very much for that! Where did you find the design for the Engelbrechtenska regt flag? It looks similar to the Spens regt. flag in the Krigsarkivet, but it looks to be white and blue rather than yellow-blue?

The hats for this regt is indeed a most difficult problem. It seems reasonable that Drottningens livregt. would have had similar hats/helmets to the guards; they were considered a guard regiment.

But as far as I know Engelbrechtenska was not a guards regiment - so it is anyone's guess (but odd that they had bicornes in the first place!).

Regarding the Eagle figures: they look good enough in themselves, but I think they may stand out among all the Perrys. I have a number of battalions of the regular indelta infantry still to do and also the Gyllenbögel Free corps. If I am lucky, the Perrys will have some guard figures out by the time I am finished with them and ready to move on to the guard battalions for the 1808 summer landings and Sävar :-)

PS I tried to add an attached image of the Spenska regt flag, but it doesn seem to work, so Ill to a link instead: https://www.tacitus.nu/karoliner/kallor/images/162.JPG


P

[traveller]

It was some years ago but I managed to find the flag through an article in the Armemuseum yearbook 1982-1984 where they outlined the history of the two "German" regiments in the Swedish army. It is indeed a descendant of Spens Regiment but according to this article the actual flag was white and not yellow so I had to redesign it - I guess you might be able to read Swedish:





I guess neither of these two regiments were really considered a guard regiment but they had a special status being recruited in Pomerania and thus had different uniforms than other regiments, wíth yellow and red details respectively.

Gyllenbögels irregulars is an interesting unit. How will you model them?

[Pancratist]

Again, thats a great reference. And now that you mentioned it, I can see that the change of color to the flag is in fact recorded in the fine hand written notes on the model flag...

For Gyllenbögel I have a collection of various Perry (and a few Brigade Games) figures in civilian clothes, AWI mostly, some Napoleonic Spanish and French I think.

I have already converted some of them (to add an improvised pompom in the hat and a few other details). For the battalions that included former soldiers, I will mix in some of the standard Perry Swedes with the civilian figures. I am assuming that the former soldiers (from Sveaborg) would have kept their uniform jackets - although I dont know for sure if that is the case...

[traveller]

It is really fun to convert irregulars. I just read that the Hälsingland Vargering battalion(reserve/depot battalion) went to war with no more uniform than a hat with a white band around and a yellow plume. It seems most vargering battalions and the Lantvärn(militia) usually had this sorry excuse for a uniform. Regarding equipment they had only a musket and a cartridge box. Please post images of your irregulars when they are done 

[Pancratist]

I will try to do keep you updated!

I was taking a look at what archival material might be available and it seems that there are a number of documens which deal with the equipment of the Engelbrechtenska regt in 1807-1809, which may give a clue to what sort of hats they had. At some point I will make a trip to the archives (its about 20 min by car from where I live, so I have no excuses :-)) and will see what I can find. There are many other interesting documents and uniform plates there that may reveal interesting details.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/nad/?Sokord=engelbrechtenska&EndastDigitaliserat=false&TranskriberadText=false&BegransaPaTitelEllerNamn=false&lk=Ladda+kategorier&AvanceradSok=False&typAvLista=Standard&page=3&postid=Arkis+2C741113-2930-4E3F-874A-DAE7083F6285&tab=post#tab

[traveller]

That sounds great. I have been there myself in search of uniform images. They have the works of Runge there but he did not draw anything on the two Stralsund regiments. If you can manage to read the documents it would be very interesting to understand what this document contain:

Specifik förteckning å de utrednings-, beklädnads- och remtygspersedlar, som blivit regementet tilldelat från och med den 12 mars till årets slut. 1808. 1808/11

otherwise, if you could take photos we could try to decipher it together 

[Gribb]

I’ve been trying to determine to what extent grey trousers were distributed in 1808. After the Pomeranian campaign (1805–07), white trousers were declared unfit for field use, and from what I’ve gathered, there may have been a mix of both white and grey in use. It would make sense that grey trousers were prioritised for troops deployed to Finland, whereas those who fought in Norway likely made do with older stocks of white.

I’ve read that the regiments involved in the Norwegian campaign of 1808–09 were considered somewhat second-rate compared to those in Finland, which might further explain why they were less likely to receive new gear. There should be solid sources in the Swedish National Archives detailing the supply situation of the various regiments.

For a long time, it was assumed that Norwegian infantrymen wore blue or grey trousers, but modern research has concluded that they wore white—even as late as 1814—with only a few units having received grey by then.

An employee at Riksarkivet answered the following:

"As for white uniform trousers, I unfortunately don’t have a good answer to offer, but I do know that they proved to be unsuitable—especially for field use—perhaps most evidently during the Pomeranian War of 1805–07. After that, grey trousers likely became more common. However, in the 1806 uniform model, the blue jacket and white trousers still remained for enlisted infantry units. That said, you will certainly find much more reliable information in the literature." As for literature, Bellanders book from 1973 was suggested.

And at Armémuseum, which I was referred to by Riksarkivet the answer was brief:
"I haven’t found any good information on how common the white linen trousers were during the 1808 war."

As for books, I have 'Between The Imperial Eagles', which I’ve been told isn’t particularly useful for understanding what was actually worn in the field, and the 'Kronans Kläder' yearbook from 2010, which focuses more on field attire but is much more concise. I don't remember if the latter concluded on that subject.

[traveller]

My conclusion on the subject of white or grey trousers is that "Kronans Kläder" gives a fair representation of the reality in the field. To find what a specific regiment wore you have to go into the details of that particular regiment. Beside the general literature like Bellander, Armemuseum etc the regimental history books is often a great source, as can be seen in the case of Södermanland Regiment.
The white trousers of the m/1802 model was clearly impractical and completely worn out after the campaign in Pomerania 1805-1807. Any trousers worn in 1808 onwards would therefore be of some of the following types, which all were longer than the earlier white trousers, and the black gaiters were shortened:
1. Grey uniform trousers of the m/1807 model
2. White linen trousers. In several instances I have found that these were issued to wear in the summer period, replacing the regular uniform trousers
3. Trousers from the fatigue uniform(släpuniform used for camp duty and manual labour), which were either grey or white of a more rough material
4. Civilian trousers, probably grey or brown. The general quality of the trousers were less than the coats and trousers were therefore worn out much faster that the coat.

If you want to paint a particular regiment, and cannot find firm evidence of what they actually wore, I would say that you can argue that any of the above would do, where a ragged regiment probably would use 3. or 4.

[Pancratist]

Traveller is spot on with this. Ive painted mine as a mix of white, grey and a few of other odd colors.

Another thing to add is that the gaiters seem to have worn out very quickly. Also the blue and yellow sash type belt was perhaps sometimes discarded (in the field they could probably manage better without it).

The drawing by Adelborg (who served in the Nyland dragoons) gives a good indication of how poor the clothing situation could be.

The drawing may perhaps portray men of the first brigade during the retreat in the spring of 1808. Infantrymen of the Åbo or Nyland regiment following their colonel Palmfelt (in the carriage) and presumably two dragoons on foot (?), the latter wearing fatigue caps. The infantryman at the front of the group seems to have his sash slung over the shoulder. The others dont seem to be wearing them at all.

[traveller]

That is a great image, it says more than a thousand words 

While we are discussing this, I just updated myself on the Dal Regiment and in the regimental history by Pihlström is noted that the grey uniform was never implemented for the 1808-09 campaign. They had a blue coat with single row of buttons and used the fatigue uniform trousers. It seems that Ebens image might then be correct:

[traveller]

I asked Martin Markelius at Armemuseum about Drottningens Livregemente and Engelbrechtens Regemente. I just got a response that he is writing a book about all the regiments during the reign of Gustav IV Adolf but that his research has not yet reached those regiments. The book will be in the same style as the one he wrote about Gustav III army. This is excellent news. It might take a few years until it is ready but then we can stop guessing 

[Gribb]

That is a great image, it says more than a thousand words 

While we are discussing this, I just updated myself on the Dal Regiment and in the regimental history by Pihlström is noted that the grey uniform was never implemented for the 1808-09 campaign. They had a blue coat with single row of buttons and used the fatigue uniform trousers. It seems that Ebens image might then be correct:

Thanks for the feedback.

"The Dal Regiment and the Västmanland Regiment are actually the ones I had in mind. I've already started painting some and was trying to work out a roughly estimated ratio of white and grey trousers. The ratio among fatigue trousers would be random I guess without having studied the regimental history.

[Gribb]

Traveller is spot on with this. Ive painted mine as a mix of white, grey and a few of other odd colors.

Another thing to add is that the gaiters seem to have worn out very quickly. Also the blue and yellow sash type belt was perhaps sometimes discarded (in the field they could probably manage better without it).

The drawing by Adelborg (who served in the Nyland dragoons) gives a good indication of how poor the clothing situation could be.

The drawing may perhaps portray men of the first brigade during the retreat in the spring of 1808. Infantrymen of the Åbo or Nyland regiment following their colonel Palmfelt (in the carriage) and presumably two dragoons on foot (?), the latter wearing fatigue caps. The infantryman at the front of the group seems to have his sash slung over the shoulder. The others dont seem to be wearing them at all.

The sash belt seems to be a typical sort of item that soldiers would quickly put in the backpack while campaigning as it serves no practical purpose. I surely would not complain if it was omitted from the Perry figures as I find it a bit cumbersome to paint due to a lack of definition for the stripes. I sure hope the Perry's make some Swedes in the kapott.