Perry normans for norman invasors in Ireland?

[.:Gunslinger:.]

Hello,

can I use the Perry 'Normans' from their crusader range to represent the cambro-normans that invaded Ireland in the 12th century?

Thanks in advance!

[Argonor]

As far as I can see, many of them are good representations for that period. I'm not an expert on the finer details, but I think they look fine for the inital invasion of 1066, which I presume preceeded the invasion of Ireland?

[sukhe_bator]

You could get away with using Conquest period troops for the lower ranks Men At Arms etc. but on the whole armour had evolved significantly by the 1100's as the lance became used more couched as opposed to overarm. Hauberks had become longer (knee to ankle length) with mail chausse (leg defences). Nasal helms had become all in one and of stronger construction. However only Lords and mercenaries would have been able to afford the latest equipment. I had a similar task in 15mm, wargaming the conflict in the Angevin period between Stephen and Matilda.
You would find more appropriate figures for leaders and the better equipped troops from amongst early Crusader ranges.

[vonplutz]

You could get away with using Conquest period troops for the lower ranks Men At Arms etc. but on the whole armour had evolved significantly by the 1100's as the lance became used more couched as opposed to overarm. Hauberks had become longer (knee to ankle length) with mail chausse (leg defences). Nasal helms had become all in one and of stronger construction. However only Lords and mercenaries would have been able to afford the latest equipment. I had a similar task in 15mm, wargaming the conflict in the Angevin period between Stephen and Matilda.
You would find more appropriate figures for leaders and the better equipped troops from amongst early Crusader ranges.

Also the sleeves of the hauberks would be full length for the most part.

[former user]

simply no
not even if You change the shields
maybe if Your name is Mel Gibson and You are shooting a movie called "Braveheart"

I recommend Osprey Elite 9 "the Normans" and Warrior 1 "Norman Knight 950-1204"

Perry normans represent the first Crusade and there was probably no other event that influenced European medieval history in terms of culture, fashion and warfare more than this very first crusade - is is simply a landmark in medieval history
I remember Old Glory had something more suitable

[.:Gunslinger:.]

Thanks for the answers people! Much appreciated!

@former user: how is the quality of the old glory miniatures? Also could you explain why exactly the perry's don't fit? I found some pictures of the web and on these, the armor looks pretty close to those of the perry crusaders!

[former user]

oh, it's long ago I bought them, I don't remember very well....

let's see, they are 25mm, a bit plain, but very affordable.
When I bought them they had to stand up against foundry, so they were pretty OK I guess
smallish, but otherwise...
It is the 3rd Crusade range I think that fits best

maybe someone made better ones in the last 15 Years, weren't there some plastics?

[janner]

I would beg to disagree with much of the advice given to date and suggest that the Perry's First Crusade range is a good starting point. Indeed I used them as a basis of my Third Crusade force, which you can find on my blog (below).

Some helmet conversions help (flat tops aren't too hard to do), as do underskirts and surcoats for the nobles. I don't believe full helms and caparisons were that common until c.1200. So maybe just the odd magnate is sufficient.

If you are up to speed with green stuff or have a buddy who is and willing to help then it wont be an issue  

Edit, yes shirts of mail developed to cover the lower arms during the 12th century and mittens were added in many cases, as were chausses, but the invasion of Ireland was not initially conducted by the well-equipped troops of the royal household or those of major magnates. So less well-equipped heavy horse supported by fairly ragged Welsh foot would be a reasonable depiction of the 'invaders'.

[Mr.J]

maybe if Your name is Mel Gibson and You are shooting a movie called "Braveheart"

Why would you want Normans in Braveheart??

I have to agree though the Normans invading Ireland would look significantly different to those of the First Crusade. Mail would be much longer. Mail 'gloves' would also often be worn. I would suggest looking towards something like the new Fireforge Templars to be honest. In my opinion they would be a pretty good match, maybe don't use the kettle helmet though as nasal helmets would still be predominant. Surcoats would also just be coming into use at this time so these figures should be pretty good. Maybe use older Normans as lesser or poorer knights.

[sukhe_bator]

My point exactly Janner - the invasion was conducted by leaders commaning local levies and lower rated troops they had available supplemented by Mercs. The levies would not necessarily have had up to date equipment and in guerilla fighting against the Welsh, more mobile tactics were required = less armour. Kettle helms and flat topped helms come in around 1200, so with a few judicious head-swaps and conversions I still reckon the lower ranks could be represented in Conquest period gear sprinkled with unit leaders, mercs and commanders in more up-to date fashions using parts drawn from later ranges...
There's also the debate about padded armour - which we see represented in effigies under mail. Some lower ranks would have not had much metal armour at all and had to rely on these early Aketons as their sole defence

[Lowtardog]

You are really looking at the period 1169-1170s. I would think some crusade knights could work as would work to some extent


Slightly later


Ideas for costume



this last one may be later period as the Irish adopted Norman dress and armour way into the 16th century., It was a google link, however the mounted chap must be a Norman as the Irish didnt use stirrups

[sukhe_bator]

Kite shields may be a bit of a problem - the top of the kite became flattened and evolved into the shorter, heater shield around 1200. If they come separately you might like to mix and match styles

[Lowtardog]

Black tree have a small range, then perhaps mix some of perry and kingmaker, the Irish would be next interesting mix to pull together.

May be worth looking for heads and shields and looking at the plastic normans for conversions etc perhaps with some of those placcy teutonic infantry/ men at arms

http://www.fireforge-games.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=37&category_id=13&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=95


http://www.conquest-games.co.uk/index.php?cPath=22_23_25

http://www.blacktreedesign.com/uk/home.php?cat=2478

[sukhe_bator]

Sounds like a good plan Lowtardog. These transitional periods are always fiddly to realise in miniature

[janner]

I didn't find it too difficult to adapt the Perry shields using clippers and needle files...