French Heraldry query

[Stuart]

Hi all

I wonder if anyone could enlighten me with regard to French heraldry in the period 1480+. English heraldry seems to really grasp multiple quartering at this stage but it doesn't seem that the French did this as much, apparently opting to stick with less complicated family emblems. I've found that French nobles c. 1500 have the same heraldry as their ancestors c. 1400. Can anyone expand on this or confirm if I've got that right.

Cheers

Stuart

[cdr]

I think you are right on that. According to French specialists like Galbreath there is a more stable environment in France in the late 15th century. There is simply not the rise and fall of powerfull families as you have in England with its civil wars in the 15th century. So there is no need to show new power through heraldry.
Quartering does happen in France.
For instance there is a scoring sheet for one of the jousts held at the Field of the Cloth of Gold in 1520. It show among others the duke of Vendome('simple' arms), the duke of Suffolk (multiple quartering), the count of Saint Pol (quartering), the marquess of Dorset (multiple quartering)

Hope this helps

Carl

[Franz_Josef]

There was an international incident when the young Dauphin and his wife (Mary, Queen of Scots) added  England to their combined coat of arms (France, Scotland and England).

[Patrice]

You can find some quartering in France, but it seems that the nobles did not like it too much. They prefered to show the plain arms of the best branch of their ancestors. Some even discarded quartering voluntarily when they became entitled to bear more prestigious arms.

[Arlequín]

Thanks for that Patrice, I've been wondering why French arms appear so uncomplicated in comparison to 15th Century English ones, I thought it might be modern heraldists doing a poor job, so glad to have my assumptions quashed.

 

[Stuart]

Thanks all for your help

I think this article confirms and illustrates exactly the above information

http://lalanguedublason.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/les-crequiers-de-lillustre-maison-de.html

Arms of the De Crequy family are shown to be the same from 1234-1590.

Stuart

[Atheling]

Thanks all for your help

I think this article confirms and illustrates exactly the above information

http://lalanguedublason.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/les-crequiers-de-lillustre-maison-de.html

Arms of the De Crequy family are shown to be the same from 1234-1590.

Stuart

Great find Stuart  .

Darrell.

[Patrice]

Now that you mention it, I ask myself why.

The French nobility was more old-fashioned, and still wanted heraldry to be easy to recognize on the battlefield? The English already were ahead of this, they made a larger use of personal standards which replaced heraldry in battle.

…And this is what English quartering eventually arrived at, in the early 19th century. Not very easy to identify

[cdr]

Bonjour Patrice
I think the raisons for the differences with Britain are many. First of all France had since the midst of the 15th century an effective national army (compagnies d'ordonnance). England was hampered by its civil wars fought between coalitions of powerhungry nobles. There were no powerful feodal lords left in France. The Duke of Burgundy ended up badly against the Swiss. The Duke of Britanny was defeated in 1488 (battle of Saint Aubin). (should ring a bell!) 
There was no need for French nobility to be recognised in the cavalry units. In these units they fought under national emblems (white cross, fleur de lis) (for instance you have the move from a field of fleur de lis to only 3 fleur de lis)

[Arlequín]

English nobility was a relatively small and 'upwardly mobile' group. Signifying who you were and who you were married into, was probably more significant to their needs. Don't forget, people like the Nevilles were originally of relatively low birth in comparison to the Staffords, Percys and even the Beauforts. Stacking up your 'connections' on your banner was an outward display of power worthy of Del Boy Trotter...



France had an established and very large nobility and if you married into a higher ranking family, you might tend to drop your lowly origins... hence the lack of quarterings etc. The unification of two relatively equal families might be a different matter though.

Charles the Bold's arms were quite complex by French standards and his daughter Marie's, after her marriage, were even more so.

I would say that there definitely was a need for French nobles to be recognised in the battle line. Patronage and reputation were really important in the workings of the French court and getting noticed on the battlefield was all part of that. Clear and undifferentiated arms would help with that, being more visible and easily identifiable than numerous quarterings and labels.

Certainly national emblems became common, even regulated, but the Compagnies d'Ordonnance, despite being hired directly by the state, still wore the colours chosen by their Captain in the French Army and arguably in the Burgundian one too, judging by the liveries which have popped-up in people's research (see also this).      

[Patrice]

As we are looking for many reasons, there could be another one too: fashion. Nobles tend to do what their king does.

The English royal arms were quartered (France & England) at the beginning of the HYW and have always been quartered since. The English nobility may have thought that quartered arms were a display of power and property. Even in modern times, UK citizenship is "British" not "English".

Contrary: France has never liked quartering the fleurs-de-lys. Even when Navarre was added later, it was not much displayed as a national symbol. The very idea of having some quartering as national emblem is somewhat shocking to French minds. There is perhaps  an inconscious feeling that France is above being quartered , and the French Republic is still "une et indivisible" and doesn't recognize ethnic groups or minorities.

[Arlequín]

Even in modern times, UK citizenship is "British" not "English".

Only in a legal sense... we still tend to usually self-describe as English, Welsh, Scots, Irish or Cornish. Only when a Scot (or one of the others) does well in some sport etc. does he suddenly become 'British' in the media.

Oddly in Medieval times, a person would more usually self-describe in terms of their town or county, but rarely if ever would they say 'English'.

Fashion, or perhaps custom at the least, seems a perfectly valid reason to do things a certain way though.