3D Printing and Our Beloved Hobby

[former user]

no wrong with that

I have the following idea:  like now, sculptors can sell miniatures with duplication rights (digitally) to painters, who then print them out and paint them, scan them back and can sell the digitized painted figure. The only difference is that due to the simple duplication, distributing painted figures becomes cheaper, and buying duplication rights becomes cheaper - everyone can afford it. The bottleneck is the scanner and the high quality printer, that are similar to moulding and casting in costs (not yet but soon).
This can work with a reasonable sale price that can allow sculptors and painters (and programmers) to earn a living.

I don't see digital sculpting so convincing yet, apart from vehicles or buildings. I wouldn't want to be Revell or Airfix if anyone with a portable 3D scanner ever gets to a tank museum...

[Ramshackle_Curtis]

Music can be passed around as mp3, but songs still sell by the million! I guess it goes to show that really the problem is that money is out dated

[Not yet dead]

Hey guys, I am in the process at the moment of getting figures done in 1:35 scale, it is really costly at the moment, the 3D figures have to be "water tight" otherwise the Printer can't read the stl file, which creates all sorts of problems for the 3D artist. The Files have to be really sound before you can print them.

There are alot of Files to be found on the Internet, but Most are Not printable.


Also the material being used is often Not crisp/smooth enough for painting. You can Pay upto €200 for a Single print. But since I started in August the industry has moved up another notch in printing details...

I havnt tried them Out but the guys at modder.com are pushing Things to the limit.

I predict that within 3-4 yrs Things will Look totally different, as soon as the industrial useage Gets cheaper so will the "Home" industry as well....

Cheers

[jamii]

3D printing is an amazing technology, but i think its still going to be quite some time before it would be cost effective to home print in mass numbers. Its still faster to spin cast minis than any other way.
I studied 3D modelling in college. My personal experience is that it was perfect for things mechanical; tanks, airplanes etc, but i still think its quicker for a sculptor to make say a dwarf or elf, or anything organic with actual clay. Even inside the computer, it still took time to model anatomical human form, and do a good job. In the hands of a good artist, I see it as being just another useful tool.

And this doesn't just affect the mini industry, when it does finally get to be as cost efficient as buying a home computer, it will have affected so many other industries, everything from toys to auto parts. I imagine copyright laws by then long since wouldve been revised and updated.

[jamii]

And what about 3D scanning?

That would mean that all the out-of-production minis would then be available as collectibles to anyone who buys the file to print.

I imagine copyright laws long since would've been revised and updated by the time it becomes cost effective and widely available.

[Conquistador]

And what about 3D scanning?

That would mean that all the out-of-production minis would then be available as collectibles to anyone who buys the file to print.

I imagine copyright laws long since would've been revised and updated by the time it becomes cost effective and widely available.

Laws fortunately/unfortunately are subject to lawyers, courts, and politicians thusly change far more slowly than technology.  Until the 1800s this wasn't really a problem.  In the latter part of the 21st, unless people/cultures/governments adapt (we can only hope that a) they do fast enough and b) they do it in a way that doesn't ride roughshod over people's rights and responsibilities - almost wrote "freedoms" there - which is probably not what will happen initially) this may be a real "OMG" moment.

My dos centavos,

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

And what about 3D scanning?

That would mean that all the out-of-production minis would then be available as collectibles to anyone who buys the file to print.

I imagine copyright laws long since would've been revised and updated by the time it becomes cost effective and widely available.

Small love of the sculpts companies like http://www.classicminiatures.net/ probably won't have the resources ($$$) to fight violations of the IP/molds they bought over time with their hard earned money.                

Speaking bluntly, the thieves will have won in that case.

I really want the 3D scanning/printing to come to individuals (i.e., me,) but it would be a ethical (even moral) shame if it destroys other people's personal efforts and legal rights.  I know some disagree with that but it still would be wrong.

Gracias,

Glenn

[carlos marighela]

It's technology, it's printable and files can be shared. As this will appeal most to geeks and hobbyists it's a fair bet that once the technology becomes affordable for home usage then approximately 80% of that usage will be men scanning their willies, enlarging them in 3D resin and posting them on online dating sites or to work colleagues.

[jamii]

well i too am morally and ethically opposed to piracy and theft. Its just plain wrong. What will probably happen, is there will infact be copy protection keys worked in to the hardware somehow, the same way they made it so that you cant 3D print a gun or bomb parts, or anything horrible. but yes, there will always be someone trying to get around it.

So you know what needs to happen between now and then?

We all need to grow the industry even bigger than it is now! 

There's a potential gamer born every minute! I personally want the industry to grow so big and wide, and far reaching by then, that a handful of dumb dumbs wont be able to affect the well being and health of the industry as a whole.

Personally i think the best way to do that is to appeal to people who like to just paint and collect stuff. Target people who are on the outskirts of the community. Bring in the comic book geeks. Bring in the B-movie enthusiasts. (Precisely what Crooked Dice is doing!)  Bring in all the steam punk fans (Malifaux, Smog, etc)

And what about horror movie fans?

etc, etc, etc.

I agree with promoting producers that are in it for the sheer love of it. yes, definitely.

[carlos marighela]

If 14cm X 14cm is max that the home printer can manage I'd say that would easily exceed the needs of your typical home genital sculptor. Whats that, a three up or four up?

I have a funny feeling that some of those dress me up, action man dolls are going to get a bit more realistic or maybe less so, depending on POV.

 

Sorry about brekky Scurv.

[jamii]

Outstanding visuals first thing in the morning Carlos   I was going to have sausages and eggs for breakfast n all mate. Not now.

The copyright angle is the elephant in the room here.

My call is copyright law has been obsolete for years with any digital media and needed to be reformed years ago. As to the form of the reform your guess is as good as mine but as it stands they just dont work and cannot work in todays world.

I have a film that cant be shown online because then I have no further control on how its used or where its used. It becomes a free product that anyone can do what they want with.

I remember talking to a guy in the comp games industry that had 40,000 illegal downloads of a PC game they made in its first few hours of release. Last PC game that company ever made for that reason and that reason alone.  

We all know you can get a movie faster off the net on its release day than going to the vid store to hire it.

There is a mall in thailand where every movie or software program in its vast cavernous space is a pirate copy. Its called MBK. google a pic of the thing its huge.

The porn industry has financially collapsed already due to everyone having a go at home made porn and flooding the web with it, where its then rebroadcast for free making their product valueless. (all jokes aside they have been hit the hardest by copyright infringement and changing tech I assure you the rest of the film industry is watching how they deal with it because its the writing on the wall for them.)

Its just not working. I suspect getting something that does work will require a radical shift in thinking about the value of creativity.

The other side is the ability to be creative is shifting from the hands of a few skilled craftsmen to everyone. In my lifetime stop motion has gone from using lots of math and strange metal calipers to measure the movement to pointing a phone at the puppet and bringing up a ghost of the last pic so you can see the exact movement. On a frickin phone not even a real camera! Any special effect in a movie or TV I can recreate on my desktop PC with 3 programs. (admittedly expensive ones but nowhere near what an editing suite cost 20 years ago. A fraction of that cost and far easier to use.)

Already you are seeing fan made films in the cinema. Iron skies being a good example.
 
What everyone being able to have a go will mean in the long run I am not sure but it will be interesting.

You're preaching to the choir. I fully agree and understand.

But as far as Thailand goes, i actually used to live in Thailand. They are cracking down on piracy these days. It used to be that pirated DVDs were practically sold on almost every street corner in Pattaya City. But if youve been there recently you'll notice they're all gone. Piracy is still going on, but now it for the most part has been driven underground. It seems like almost every week im reading in the news about someone getting busted for selling counterfeit goods. It still however, is unfortunately too alluring and tempting to sell counterfeits. So theyre making the penalties very stiff. Whats BAD then, is a lot of them have now shifted online to selling pirated goods. But i assure you they are doing what they can to crack down on it. It gives Thailand a bad name, and it hurts tourism, trade and commerce in the worst possible way. The Queen of Thailand is actually using her own money to help finance the arts and preserve heritage and culture. 

So where do you think its all going then? Whats the alternative? No industry at all?

My prediction is there will be a radical shift in how piracy is dealt with.

There will be a radical shift in the way people as a whole view the idea of theft.

It will reach a breaking point.

[Conquistador]

It's technology, it's printable and files can be shared. As this will appeal most to geeks and hobbyists it's a fair bet that once the technology becomes affordable for home usage then approximately 80% of that usage will be men scanning their willies, enlarging them in 3D resin and posting them on online dating sites or to work colleagues.

        

Sadly, too probable.   

After the work e-mail this morning that PO'ed evey person in the office, even the sycophants, sorry that I can't share it with LAF, I needed this laugh.

Very appreciated!

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

well i too am morally and ethically opposed to piracy and theft. Its just plain wrong. What will probably happen, is there will infact be copy protection keys worked in to the hardware somehow, the same way they made it so that you cant 3D print a gun or bomb parts, or anything horrible. but yes, there will always be someone trying to get around it.

So you know what needs to happen between now and then?

We all need to grow the industry even bigger than it is now! 

There's a potential gamer born every minute! I personally want the industry to grow so big and wide, and far reaching by then, that a handful of dumb dumbs wont be able to affect the well being and health of the industry as a whole.

Personally i think the best way to do that is to appeal to people who like to just paint and collect stuff. Target people who are on the outskirts of the community. Bring in the comic book geeks. Bring in the B-movie enthusiasts. (Precisely what Crooked Dice is doing!)  Bring in all the steam punk fans (Malifaux, Smog, etc)

And what about horror movie fans?

etc, etc, etc.

I agree with promoting producers that are in it for the sheer love of it. yes, definitely.

 

Having been in the SCA in the past I can say that letting everyone in certainly opens your understanding of human nature.

Seriously, the more the merrier.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

<snip>

The copyright angle is the elephant in the room here.

My call is copyright law has been obsolete for years with any digital media and needed to be reformed years ago. As to the form of the reform your guess is as good as mine but as it stands they just dont work and cannot work in todays world.

<snip>

Its just not working. I suspect getting something that does work will require a radical shift in thinking about the value of creativity.

The other side is the ability to be creative is shifting from the hands of a few skilled craftsmen to everyone. In my lifetime stop motion has gone from using lots of math and strange metal calipers to measure the movement to pointing a phone at the puppet and bringing up a ghost of the last pic so you can see the exact movement. On a frickin phone not even a real camera! Any special effect in a movie or TV I can recreate on my desktop PC with 3 programs. (admittedly expensive ones but nowhere near what an editing suite cost 20 years ago. A fraction of that cost and far easier to use.)
<snip>

There you go using that logic  thing again... 

Truth be known you are almost certainly right!  Luddite leanings aside, it's like nuclear weapons, once the genie is out of the bottle...

Change will happen but hopefully it will happen in a manner that achieves some level of stability for the creators of the figures.

While there are people who will do such for sheer love it is a means of making a living for some people...    Or so I have heard...

Gracias,

Glenn

[CompanyB]

My 2 cents...

Having worked with many 3D artists, done some myself, and printed on a number of printers...  The tech bodes well for manufacturing.  But consumer use is still many, many years away.  We have many printers available for 3D at work, and send out large print jobs as well.  Everything form lifesize human arms for product size tests, to consumer tech prototypes you can hold in your hand.

I have friends who model in 3D CAD that get all sorts of consulting requests from customers who have successful kickstarter projects, etc that have loads of investment completed in 3D work, only to have to tell these folks their meshes are crap, and they have to start over.  Imagine being told your $10k investment in masters is garbage and has to be thrown out. There still is a steep learning curve in CAD and product design.

The issue is that CAD design is not the same as 3D modeling for games, illustration, etc.  Especially with organic features.  The best software isn't cheap either.  A CAD package like solid works is $4k for a license.  Yeah, you can uses cheaper software.  You can also use Legos to make terrain for your wargame.

The best printers for miniatures also do not give you a finished model.  You have a lot of sprues to remove, and acetone to apply to smooth the surfaces.  And one mistake will mean you reprint. (Our dorchester master literally took 4 days to print and had to be fused together in the center). Printing service fees just to remove sprue and clean a model can be about $80 to $150.  That's is not for the model...that's to clean it!

Also, there is the material cost.  The resin is not cheap...and you will have throw away prints from file errors, clogged nozzles, bad material, etc.

A good comparison is regular paper printing.  How many folks have color laser printers, versus ink jets?  I bet most have ink jets.  Cheap, reliable, and get the job done.  As long as the job does not require 100 full color posters.

I have a color laser printer.   But the cost of ownership is high.  For me to fill the printer with toner 100% from empty is $320.  I have to also have a maintenance expert do repairs, and adjustments.  Now this is offset by being able to do large print jobs, and by sub contracting out my printer to folks that need it every so often.  Friends, the kids school, Company B, etc.
I can see the new 3d printers having similar issues, but multiplied by 100.   Great for the occasional print, maybe some thing unique.  But to have an army of 100 miniatures?  The printing costs and effort would exceed the price to reproduce them in metal or buy them online. Prices will come down.  But not that much. The resin for the formZ printer is still $200 for a few pints.  A 28mm mini ranges in price from $1 to $12.  The actual material cost is about $.50 in metal alloy.  A 28mm print in the same size is still $30 to $50 in material cost.

If anything, companies would set up a shop to have their own high res printer.  So your local games Workshop store could manufacture it's own merchandise, and they get to forego VAT, shipping, stocking fees, storage, etc.  That sort of volume business model could absorb the material and support costs 3D printing requires.