Girls Und Panzers any one got rules?

[Elbows]

I think I'll be going PSC for my tanks - they're pretty cheap.  Sadly I have no gamers around here, or it'd be the perfect solution since each box comes with 4-5 tanks.  Team up with a friend or two, buy 3-4 boxes and split the tanks between yourselves.

Not to derail the project as it is rolling along...some ideas I had rolling around in my head (as I head off to re-watch the series).

1) "Crew" Dice.  Using something like Gamecrafter, I'll probably create concave 6-sided dice with various "crew" abilities (spotting, repair, etc.).  A normal crew might have two dice, an expert crew five.

2) I was thinking along the lines of 2-3 damage decks (light, medium, severe damage?).  I like decks for damage because you can throw in some "lucky shot" style cards in the light damage deck (allowing a hopelessly outgunned tank to score an amazing shot which destroys a much heavier opponent - though very unlikely).  Being a card-deck whore...I love me some random card decks and it seems to really amp up people in convention games - the allure of drawing a card...oooohhh...ahhh!

3) I'm still leaning toward hexes for the game...to make it much simpler and easier to determine armour facings etc.  Also, given the "game" nature of the show/series, I think it wouldn't be too unsuitable.

4) I would likely introduce a very simple armor piercing mechanic:
Tanks have an armour value (let's say Tank A has an armour value of 4 for its front armour)
Tank guns have a gun value (let's say Tank B has a gun value of 3, a small 37mm gun)
Tank B's player rolls a successful shot, and now rolls his gun value.  Now, normally a gun value of 3 will never beat armour 4, it's mathematically impossible.  However, use a very simple mechanic where each 6 rolled on a D6 (or something similar) counts as armour piercing, scoring not only a hit, but reducing the target's armour by 1 point.  Thus a Gun value of 3 could defeat an armour value of 4 by rolling two or more 6's when rolling to damage.  This would provide a miniscule chance to even the lowliest crap gun to damage a heavier tank (though still rather unlikely).

5) Again with my penchant for card decks I'd likely do decks of tanks from various countries, and a school would decide ahead of time what it would choose (ie. which country "I'll take four German, one British, and two American") or would roll on a table which would give them the number to draw.  In addition to this, likely a deck of scrounged parts (schuerzen, upgraded guns, smoke launchers, etc.) which could be drawn randomly and added to vehicles of your choice.

6) A simple competition section could be set up, allowing for the recovery of tanks between games (a team must be able to provide a minimum number to qualify for the next game etc.)

I'm ordering a box of PSC tanks for now, just to have some models to play-test with.  I can't wait to see what everyone comes up with! 

(PS: nice to possibly start a relatively simple project compared to other works...)

[Arlequín]

Also as the tank crew gain skills would you prefer to be able to choose your skills or have them random?

I suppose both would work. Initially skills at random, but I imagine that your kids will soon want their own teams, if it was me, I'd be encouraging them to come up with characters and background for them (although some will do that anyway without prompting). You could also incorporate a simple experience system too, so 'x' successful repairs, or destroyed vehicles, could give a modifier to the driver or gunner. You might even give the team leader +1 Flower Arranging after so many team victories. Before you know it, you'll be running your own league.


The structural damage is a good idea and reminds me of Battletech. In that you had armour points which were removed from the appropriate areas (front, left, right, rear) and structure points for the same areas. 'Critical Hits' could cause structural damage and/or damage/destroy internal systems, despite there being armour left in an area. This encourages tactical play, so weakened areas would need to be shielded from enemy fire.

[Elbows]

Disclaimer: Many Hours to Waste

Here is a link to a pretty decent vehicle database for most of the common tanks in WW2.  I used this a few months ago when I thought about working on a WW2 tank simulator for the tabletop.  I figure it's too good of a resource not to share for this project.  Using the armour thickness and angle (you can find the formula online) you can establish armour thicknesses.

Many of the guns have penetration data as well.  Needless to say I expect to horribly simplify this down but raw data is sometimes pretty fun to check out.

http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php

[Lord GreyWolf]

Disclaimer: Many Hours to Waste

Here is a link to a pretty decent vehicle database for most of the common tanks in WW2.  I used this a few months ago when I thought about working on a WW2 tank simulator for the tabletop.  I figure it's too good of a resource not to share for this project.  Using the armour thickness and angle (you can find the formula online) you can establish armour thicknesses.

Many of the guns have penetration data as well.  Needless to say I expect to horribly simplify this down but raw data is sometimes pretty fun to check out.

http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php

that site is beautiful.... I will use it a lot I am going to spend the next few days to nut out some light, medium and Heavy damage decks [the maus will come under the Heavy damage deck but need an X amount of extra damage cards. For example a Complete Kill card on a maus would not destroy it but two of them could.]

I wonder if we could use the art on there for data cards. like most of you I want to have simple set up and what better way to do that is with cards fro the damage and the data.
no flicking through a rule book for the AP or the speed or the armour its all there.

I think I'll add in rules for both free flowing [which i want as I am wanting my kids to learn how to measure. btw I think I'll get some speed band rulers made up in 10cm increments so we can measure the speed distance easier.] and hex based mats. That way its there for everyone to choose. [Elbow can I count on you to help me sort out the Hex system???]

Also with regards to turning do we keep it simple and that the tanks will use one speed band to make turns?

for example a:
Pzr 38(t) 40cm [42km p/hr]
45 degree turn FREE
90 degree turn FREE
180 degree turn 1 speed band [10cm of movement]

Pzr IV F2 40cm [40km p/hr]
45 degree turn FREE
90 degree turn 1 speed band [10cm of movement]
180 degree turn 2 speed bands [20cm of movement]

Tiger II 40cm [38km p/hr]
45 degree turn 1 speed band [10cm of movement]
90 degree turn 2 speed band [20cm of movement]
180 degree turn 3 speed bands [30cm of movement]

Maus 20cm [20km p/hr]
45 degree turn 2 speed band [20cm of movement]
90 degree turn 3 speed band [30cm of movement]
180 degree turn 4 speed bands [40cm of movement]

@Arlequín: I think the Bloodbowl experience chart would fit this in nicely and the skills could be voted on by us all.. if you want to start listing the different types of skill rewards you would want/like. please note on the Skill whether its for Commander, loader, comms, driver, gunner.

so this is starting to look really cool I think by keeping it simple we will find this game to be used in club days, demos, 1 day tournaments, and Beer and Pretzel nights.

thx heaps for all of the input, comments and general support...

LGW

[Elbows]

Ideas on the hex version.  I was going to make it pretty simple.

Each tank has a speed value (ranging from perhaps 1-6).  A single point of speed is used to move one hex or change one hex facing.  In addition a tank may always turn its turret one hex facing for free.  I think my take on the GuP idea is a bit more...simplistic.   

Here is a quick image I did up of "facings" for the hexes.



A "crew" dice using a spotting mechanic (a crew must spot an enemy tank to shoot it).  Tank hunters will be allowed to "set ambush", giving them a chance to make opportunity fire to any enemy tank which drives through their line of sight.  When set in ambush, tank hunters will be harder to spot than a normal tank.  Terrain and cover would affect the spotting roll.  Using a hex mat I'm still thinking of perhaps using something like a Memoir '44 style card base activation (dividing the board in left, center, and right).

I just dug out a bunch of the stuff I had scribbled down when I was thinking about that tank simulator project...this could be a much more easy and fun use.  I actually just now ordered five 1/100 Zvezda tanks for $25 off of my favorite gaming sight.  Just some quick models to knock together for some play-testing.  I had been planning a hex based game a long time ago so I have a stack of 100 MDF hexes measured for the gaming mat.  I'll be attaching terrain to these (trees, maybe hills, some buildings etc.).

Regarding the damage decks.  I was thinking along the lines of hits vs. armor = result.  Say a player rolls 5 strikes against an armour 3 opponent...he scores 2 damage points, and would draw from a damage deck accordingly (decks maybe: 1 damage, 2 damage, 3+ damage?). 

[Lord GreyWolf]

I'll have a think about it regarding the Hex set up.. its not my cup of tea but I am sure there are plenty of people out there would use it so well get to it once we get the base dynamics sorted and then add in the alternate hex format for those that would prefer that.

Now onto other question:

What colour schemes are you thinking of doing on your GuP tanks?

Also will we, be setting this version of GuP as part of the Tankery Nationals or as the World Series of Tankery?
As I am sort of thinking if we set this like 10 years after the T.V series and its now the World Series and Sponsors have joined in with sponsoring teams... A StuG III G rolling along with PePsi on the side schurzen or Bud Light on the side of a Panther. etc...

its Capitalism high on pop culture.

My tanks have increased I nabbed some more off my brother in law now have the following tanks:

2x Tiger I
4x Panthers
1x Elefant
4x Panzer IV

4x Sherman M4A4
2x Fireflies

8x T-34/76
6x T-34/85

Still need a few more German tanks, a couple of Soviet tanks and quite a few British tanks and then its painting time... still not sure on my colour schemes yet but I do have some decals on order so will see how it goes from there.

LGW

[Elbows]

I think they mentioned that "Tankery" was at one point popular around the world - I don't think it was limited to the fake quasi-Japan in the show.  One of the teams was decidedly British, so I'd imagine international would be fine.  Also, all of this is up to you if you're going to be gaming Girls und Panzer...or your own not"Girls und Panzer".

Lord, I was not insisting that your project be hex-based.  I may just knock up a simpler hex-based game (something I think would be a bit easier/more convention friendly).  Like I said earlier, the skeleton of my previous tank research gave me a simple basis for something along those lines.  Personally I'd definitely be inclined to play a more "serious" version with normal models/terrain.  In fact I may have to revisit the idea of selling off my 1/200 scale Dropzone Commander buildings...hmmm...

PS: Regarding tanks.  Another "option" for those wanting to game Cold War era would be Roco's excellent line of 1/87 (HO scale) minitanks.  I don't even know if they still make them, but they had a huge friggin' range.  The scale is close enough to 1/100 that the same rules/terrain would not look horribly out of place.

Personally I'll be inclined to paint each of my tanks individually..with some subdued and some not-so subdued.  Perhaps a few Japanese style battleflags etc.  This would let me switch the tanks to various teams, as opposed to painting up team-based paint schemes.

Anyone have an idea where to get some small simulated bamboo shoots around 28-40mm tall?  I'd like to create some flags which can be placed on tanks which are eliminated etc. Suppose I could just toothpicks and a file though...

PS: One more thought on "activations".  While my research shows that many of the light tanks were not all that much faster than the larger tanks (likely due to small engines in the small tanks!), I think there should be some definite bonuses to being a light or medium tank with regards to movement etc.  Perhaps activation deck which players draw from, cards indicating "Activate Two Light and One Heavy Tank" or something.  However, provide more cards which activate light and medium tanks and fewer cards to activate heavy tanks?  Or perhaps only allow light tanks to turn or use their turret in wooded areas etc. 

[Arlequín]

The tanks used are 'modified'. Besides the 'carbon' lining which prevents fatalities, it's probably safe to assume that their engines have been swapped out too. I'd imagine somewhere that there are 'regulations' over engine sizes and speeds, just like in motor racing... so the rather unreliable power plants of some vehicles are negated.

Safe to say then that presuming a conformity of power plant, weight will determine speed, although weaknesses in running gear design, tracks and the like will remain. That's my excuse anyway and I'm sticking to it.

 

@Arlequín: I think the Bloodbowl experience chart would fit this in nicely and the skills could be voted on by us all.. if you want to start listing the different types of skill rewards you would want/like. please note on the Skill whether its for Commander, loader, comms, driver, gunner.

I'm strictly in the peanut gallery for this one... this would bring me one step from my kids consigning me to the funny farm!

I don't play Bloodbowl or anything like that, so my input on skills would be superficial to say the least.

I am interested in seeing this develop though and will continue to add in throwaway remarks and ideas where I can. 

[Lord GreyWolf]

The Bloodbowl Experience chart is simple:

Touchdown = Xpts
Successful pass = Xpts
Successful catch = Xpts
Casualty = Xpts

Then you have Skills Broken down to different types and Races.
Positions: Thrower, Blitzer, Linemen, Bigguys, 
Races: Orcs, Human, Chaos, Goblins, Lizrdmen etc...

So to convert it to GuP:
Destroy enemy Flag Tank = Xpts
Damaging enemy Tank [Structural Damage]= Xpts
Immobilizing Enemy Tank = Xpts
Bailing an Enemy Tank =Xpts

Positions: Tank Commander, Loader, Comms, Driver
Schools: various High schools Tankery is taught.

Skills could be like:
Level 2 Comms [Communications Only SKill] Tanks with in the squad my make an additional move or shoot this turn. can be used only X times during the game.
Speed Demon [Driver Only Skill] increases the tanks speed band by 1.
Mechanic [All] adds +1 to any repair rolls
Engineer [Mechanic Upgrade] adds +2 to any repair roll.
Tactician [Tank Commander Only] Enables the Tank Commander to re-roll one of Their own dice once per turn.
Fast Hands [Loader Only] Increase Tanks rate of fire by +1
Calm underfire: crews with this skill ignore the Bailed out crew card.

I will sit down and write up some more.
Also I think for those schools that have low amount of funds can have a scrounge roll at the end of the match to see what parts they can find. The items they find will have a $ amount allocated to them and a sell price so the school can keep it if they can use the items found or sell them to get more funds [sell price is 50% less then the buy price.] Tanks they have can also be sold. Any new items added increase the price of the tank.

When working out the Armour for each tank how do we take into account the armour angle? eg the T-34's slopped armour is critical to its all over save.

Cheers
LGW

[Arlequín]

You're trying to get the overall impression of armoured warfare, rather than an extremely detailed simulation, surely? 

If it is important though, you have the armour thickness in mm, multiply that by the angle of slope (i.e. 30^o would mean multiplying by 1.3) to give the relative armour thickness, then work out as normal. Alternatively you could just give a modifier for sloped armour.

[Lord GreyWolf]

You're trying to get the overall impression of armoured warfare, rather than an extremely detailed simulation, surely? 

I guess I am trying to find a middle for either group.. I have never made or been part of a game design like this [I've done some rule design for 28mm skirmish games]

for me I think I need to stop going into to much detail and make this more of a Armoured warfare and less of a detailed Simulation as there are plenty of games out there that do that already.

So keeping it in a Armoured warfare what armour equation do I use?
do we just have an armour value that covers the whole tank or have different armour values for front,sides,rear and turret? [eg like FoW]

If it is important though, you have the armour thickness in mm, multiply that by the angle of slope (i.e. 30^o would mean multiplying by 1.3) to give the relative armour thickness, then work out as normal. Alternatively you could just give a modifier for sloped armour.

Armour Thickness in mm x angle of slope = Adjusted Armour thickness.
Adjusted Armour Thickness in cm / 2  = Armour Value.

how did you work out 30 degrees is 1.3?

LGW

[Elbows]

Actually the formula (if memory serves) is:  Armour Thickness / cos(90-angle of slope)

So, say you have 50mm armour at a 72 degree angle.  50/cos(18) = 52.5mm (equivalent)

75mm armour at 45 degree angle = 106mm equivalent

However this is only measuring the equivalent thickness (or the distance needed to travel horizontally through said material.  It does not accurately represent the increased likelihood of the sloped armour making a round deflect/glance.

Regarding Blood Bowl skills - I think that's a reasonable system but I'd really skip the separation of crews into individual members.  I don't know about other folks here but I'm not entirely sure I want to monitor each crew member for a team of 10 tanks (30-50 members).  I'd rather categorize the tanks themselves (light, medium, heavy, tank destroyer, artillery etc.) and have the crew develop together, giving the tank or crew attributes instead of individual crew members.  Perhaps an exception made for a command tank or something?

[Lord GreyWolf]

Ok for one I am not good with Formulas... I wish I could just make a calculator that all I need to do is add in the thickness of the armour the angle it is on and then it crunches the numbers and gives me a value....

ok I get it about the crew Will make it that the skills are for the Crew not individual. otherwise at the end of a battle with 20 tanks your going to be rolling skills for awhile.

Will make them more crew centric and also have some set up for the different schools as well.

LGW

[Arlequín]

how did you work out 30 degrees is 1.3?

I didn't, I just decided it would be. 

The thing is, that whatever you apply has to be equal in every case. Just using the angle as the modifier may not be scientific, but it does work for what you need. Non-penetrating hits can be assuming to have been insufficient to penetrate, or to have glanced off. Might not be strictly an accurate representation of the effect of sloping armour, but it does give an effect and that effect is even across the board.

Whole crew experience might be better, given that they don't appear to swap crew around between vehicles on the show.

It's tempting to get more and more detailed, but you have to keep your eyes on the objective... which is a family game of fun with tanks, where type A is somewhat different from type B, but still essentially the same where it matters and there's a fundamental difference between light, medium and heavy tanks in game play on top of that. Anything else you add on is likely to move things towards a point where your players 'switch-off'. You know your audience though, so it shouldn't be difficult to pitch things at the right level for all.     

I've never done anything like this before either, it's certainly a learning experience. 

[Elbows]

The reality is you don't need to do a lot of math.  Unless you have 20-30 different "levels" of armour, a simple glance at the armour thickness should be sufficient.  Heck you can even completely ignore the angle of the armour etc.  If you have 4-5 levels of armour, it'd be pretty simple to calculate or guess which bracket each tank would fit into.  How complex were you wanting to get?  I like your idea of team traits (maybe country traits?).  Perhaps the type of team or country also determines their preference for certain types of tanks (allowing for a discount if your team prefers light tanks over other types etc.)

What kind of games were you planning?  It seems from the show we only hear about "Total Annihilation" rules and "Flag Tank" rules.  Were you planning on adding other game types?  I can see some capture-the-flag style games, or perhaps a scoring mode where tanks attempt to cross a scoring line (start teams opposing on long sides of the board - each time has a certain number of "scoring" tanks --- they attempt to get them across the enemy's goal line?).  Lots of possibilities.

Regarding upgrades to the crew, I think you'll find you can get the same result.  Instead of rolling for each crew member, a crew trait could be "excellent driver".  So you'd get a lot of the same bonuses, just a bit easier to keep track of.  I'm very anxious to see your first painted up kits!