New to Napoleonic need abit of help?

[John b]

Ok so a few friends of mine have persuaded me to venture into napoleonics Iv seen there army's and thought wow, and watched a few games and thought that looks interesting.
And I have to admit Iv watched a few episodes if sharp ect over the years and I enjoyed the history of it and always wanted to to learn abit more.
So Iv asked the basic questions of my friends but want to confirm a few others so,
They both have British army's so looks like I'm stuck with the French.
They both inherited there army's through friends ect so they were pre built/ collected and were are using the black powder rules.
I would normally pester my friends for advice but I did pester them about ACW to death.
So with this on mind neither of them could give me did unitive advice on what I should get so Iv done some homework but want to make sure I'm heading in the right direction?
I plan to get myself some old guard as I like the style of these miniatures and there history too, I will invest in Victrix as its the best value for money, I know il probably need about 5 units/ regiments if infantry but 3 boxes will give me 180 miniatures so more than enough, but this is were I get con fused.
Cavalry=???
Artillery=???
Command/HQ's=???
So I can figure out the infantry but the rest? I get advice saying get what you like the look of but I would like it to be slightly historically accurate, I have the options of Victrix, perry and warlord at my local shop so any advice would be so greatly appreciated

[Belgian]

Hi, not an expert in this era but Perry Miniatures also has plastic french cavalry (heavy cavalry, hussars and dragoons) which you can find here: http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=22_62&osCsid=ktsvqg0sabno4vlb3d4vihev50

Kind regards

[Conquistador]

First an apology for depending so much on wikipedia.

I assume you are building a force representing Napoleon being somewhere observing the Action?   There are lots of elements of the Imperial Guard besides just the Old Guard.

If you choose to go this ultra elite force route you might consider "Middle Guard" and "Young Guard" forces depending on your time period.  This gives you more choices and units but also gives you some more units that lack the aura of near-invincibility.

Some selected interesting bits:

The Consular Guard (Gardes des Consuls) consisted of 2 battalions of foot grenadiers and 1 company of light infantry. In the end of 1800 the company of light infantry increased to battalion of chasseurs. At the battle of Marengo the Consular Guard transitioned to a battle formation.

In 1804 after his crowning, Napoleon transformed the Consular Guard into the Imperial Guard (Garde Imperiale).

In 1809 the Guard participated in all great battles.

The increase of Guard came in 1810 from the incorporation of the Dutch Royal Guard.

In 1810 the Guard was officially divided into Old Guard, Middle Guard and Young Guard. Only the 1er Grenadiers and 1er Chasseurs carried Eagle.

In 1812 the structure of the Imperial Guard was as follow:
Old Guard:
. . . . 1er Grenadiers
. . . . 1er Chasseurs
. . . . Company of Veterans
. . . . Gendarmes
. . . . Officers and Sergeants of Middle Guard
. . . . Officers of Young Guard
Middle Guard:
. . . . 2e Grenadiers
. . . . 2e Chasseurs
. . . . Fusiliers-Grenadiers
. . . . Fusiliers-Chasseurs
. . . . Velites of Turin (Italians)
. . . . Velites of Florence (Italians)
. . . . NCOs of Young Guard
Young Guard:
. . . . 1er, 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e, 6e Tirailleurs
. . . . 1er, 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e, 6e Voltigeurs

The Splendid Guard Perished in Russia
The campaign in 1812 in Russia ruined the Guard. Approx. 50,000 foot and horse guardsmen had been reduced to 1,100.

1813-1814
The New and Larger Guard

The years of 1813-1814 saw the Young Guard fighting in every major battle. Even the Old Guard was used in combat (Leipzig, Hanau, Craonne etc.)

1815
Napoleon had to rebuilt the Guard again in 1815.

A a levy of selected 2 officers and 20 men from each line and light infantry regiment joined the new Guard. Only the 1er Grenadiers and 1er Chasseurs were filled with men with 12 years' service and with the men of Elba Battalion. They were the Old Guard, the sine pari (without equal). Almost 30 % of the I/1er Grenadiers were veterans of 20-25 campaigns, one third was awarded for bravery. They averaged 35-years of age.
The 2e Grenadiers and 2e Chasseurs accepted men with 8 years' service.
The 3e and 4e Grenadiers, and 3e and 4e Chasseurs were filled up with men with only 4 years' service.
The beaurocrats in Ministry of War named the 2e, 3e and 4e regiments Old Guard, but the army called them Middle Guard. The Young Guard consisted of volunteers, retired men, Corsicans, recruits and even deserters.

All the above from - http://www.napolun.com/mirror/web2.airmail.net/napoleon/IMPERIAL_GUARD_infantry_1.htm

Lots of organizational details and battle history over time later in the article too!

The Imperial Guard (French: Garde Impériale) was originally a small group of elite soldiers of the French Army under the direct command of Napoleon I, but grew considerably over time. It acted as his bodyguard and tactical reserve, and he was careful of its use in battle. The Guard was divided into the staff, infantry, cavalry, and artillery regiments, as well as battalions of sappers and marines. Another division existed in distinguishing the experienced veterans from less experienced members: the Old Guard, Middle Guard and Young Guard. -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Guard_(Napoleon_I)

From VArious sources:

There were four regiments of Old Guard infantry: the 1st Grenadiers, 2nd Grenadiers, 1st Chasseurs, and 2nd Chasseurs.  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Guard

There were four regiments of Old Guard cavalry: the Grenadiers à Cheval (mounted grenadiers), Chasseurs à Cheval (mounted chasseurs), Dragons de l'Impératrice (the Empress's Dragoons), and the 1st Polish Lancers.[citation needed]
The Mamelukes squadron was also considered part of the Old Guard cavalry.
The Legion de Gendarmerie d'Elite (elite Gendarmes) was counted as Old Guard cavalry. It was deployed in detachments as escorts for Napoleon's headquarters and the General Staff of the Guard, and for Imperial Guard field camps.[citation needed] - again, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Guard


There is a section of what battles the OG cavalry fought in at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenadiers_à_Cheval_de_la_Garde_Impériale

And finally just to stir some thought:  https://www.hexwar.com/secure/games/napoleons-last-battles/common/myths.html


Gracias,

Glenn

[John b]

Thanks for the advice what I'm after us basically, what will I need to build an army?? So how many bases per unit and how handy units? And what units should I take? I'm more use to FOW and 40k so I know what the force selection is with those but black powder has baffled me :/

[emperorpenguin]

With Black powder the number of bases doesn't really matter but you need at least 4 bases so you can form square, column and line formations.

[John b]

I just need to know what I need for an army? Is it like my ACW I have 3 regiment of infantry =12 bases 4 bases of cavalry 1 lot of officers mounted and 1 gun+crew ??

[Cubs]

I'm going to quote what I see as the very rough, kind of average numbers I used to work to.

Okay, well if you think an infantry battalion tends to be around 24 figures-ish (4 rows of 6 look nice), one infantry brigade might be 2-4 battalions.

A cavalry regiment might then be around 12 models, with a brigade being again 2-4 regts.

Artillery, a battery could be represented by one or two guns, as you find most aesthetically pleasing.

So a small force might typically be 1-2 infantry brigades, 1 cavalry brigade and 2 artillery batteries.

A medium force - 3-4 infantry brigades, 2 cavalry brigades (1 light, 1 heavy?) and 3 artillery batteries.

A large force - 5-6 infantry brigades, 3 cavalry brigades, 4 artillery batteries.

Simplistic, but I'd say that's a reasonable framework from which you can tinker and shove about as your fancy or the scenario take you.

[John b]

Brilliant this I can understand

[sjwalker51]

Suggest you join the Warlord Games BP forum for some extra advice on how best to create a suitable army using their rules. I guess you might find one of the Napoleonic supplements (covering the Peninsular and Waterloo campaigns) useful.

I've not (yet) tried BP, but try to resist basing your French army on the Old Guard, however pretty - they were rarely used in battle against the British (Waterloo being the notable exception) and not deployed to the Peninsula, which is where most of the British fighting took place - so concentrating on French line units gives you the most flexibility and setting games in the Peninsula  allows you to add all sorts of different units, like German Confederation of the Rhine, to the mix. All the main troop types are available in plastic as well, which is a bonus.

Enjoy the new project!

[fastolfrus]

Since you may end up only fighting against British, it may be worth looking to see where the British fought and choosing a force deployed there.
Mostly French and allied types in Spain, but you could also consider the French in Egypt (very colourful early war uniforms), the Waterloo campaign, or how about the Americans - the British were engaged against them in the War of 1812 (the British burnt down the White House in 1814). The Americans would give you a chance to use riflemen against the British players, although figures aren't specifically available in plastic, but can be converted from British ones.

[joroas]

Go to Perrys for cheap figures, they have infantry and 3 different cavalry boxes in plastic.  Some command and artillery in metal will see you right.

[fastolfrus]

And if you pick up figures at a show you often find discount deals - eg  buy 3 get 1 free.

[carlos13th]

Perry plastics seem to be the way to go. Maybe some Vitrix to if you want some pose variety.

[Aerendar Valandil]

of course you are not obliged to stick to history, and you can buy and paint (and play with) the models you want. But when you largely play British vs French, you may note this:

With very few exceptions, the British seldom fought French armies with Imperial Guard troops present. With the exception of the Waterloo campaign (and Southern France a year before), the British presence in mainland Europe was usually one with relatively small forces in relatively peripheral locations, such as Walcheren, Holland and the Peninsula, reinforces by allies of local troops. Napoleon himself usually had larger and more threatening forces to fight in the east, where the British presence was minor, and as he always used his Guard as one force under his personal eye, the Guard usually was not where the British were.     

*I think Napoleon did not take the Consular Guard with him in Egypt. 

*In Spain, by far most battles was fought by subordinate commanders without Imperial Guard troops, as Napoleon left Spain early and took the guard with him back to France. The war in Spain was largely fought by French line troops and a myriad of allies from alle over Europe, but no Imperial Guard. Note that the British at a certain point did send their Guard troops to Spain. Unlike Napoleon, who usually kept his Guard troops together in one large force, the British had no qualms about sending units or brigades of guard troops to reinforce their overseas ventures.

*At Waterloo, of course, Napoleon was present with his guard, and the last stand of the French Guards attacked by the British is famous. However, the Guard was kept behind and committed relatively late.

Most British VS French engagement were British line (with some guard and allies)  VS French line and/or allies. French line and British line make for nice battles in various locations, and moreover, they provide for a myriad of uniforms and very, very nice figures - but there were (historically) no Imperial Guard.

[John b]

Thanks to everyone so far for all the kind advice, Iv just got back from my local WarGameStore and now have 2x boxes of perry french infantry and 1x blister of infantry officers mounted and 1x box of Victrix old guard.
So now I need abit more advice on unit composition ect and best way to build/ paint for peninsula wars.

Any advice on what else I should invest in??