To paint or pay?

[AndrewBeasley]

I'm finding zero time to paint figures at the moment and to be honest wondering if I will get any time at all in the near future (i.e. five years) so I'm thinking about paying for some-one to paint them for me    Most of the figures would be for skirmish games (max of 5 figures of the same race in bands of 8-12 figures) and a mix of 15mm through to heroic 28s (GW big) with fantasy predominating over 'real' or Sci-Fi figures.  This way I can spend some time pushing figures around the table rather than the cupboards / drawers in the study.

Problem is I have never asked anyone or know anyone who has had this done so wonder if you could help with thoughts / advice?

a) You see wonderful pictures of figures on the web site - do they match when you get them in hand?
b) How do you select a painter or do you try randomly?
c) Given the limited number of figures the same should I bulk ship a pile or keep to a given race (e.g. Skaven / Orc / Human) at a time?
d) To base or not to base - I like to have magnetic bases - is this an odd request?
e) Would you do it again?
f) Payment - up front / part pay up front / pay on picture?
g) UK or abroad?
h) Standard?  My normal war-games standard is (28mm+ and 15mm):

i) Cost - tied in with standard I know but thoughts?
j) Anything I should be asking the painters?

PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS QUESTION TO ADVERTISE YOUR SERVICES - I'm looking for advice currently to help me make my mind up?

Thanks in advance
Andrew

[robh]

The over-riding principle is: Research!!!

Fix your Budget.
Decide if you are prepared to do any cleaning/flash removal, assembly, gap filling etc.
Decide if you are prepared to do basing, final varnishing, fixing flags/shield decals etc.
Get samples done first.
Make sure you specify a contact/update period, weekly, fortnightly, monthly.
Write everything you agree with the painter in an email, get them to confirm it by comment and returning it to you.
Payment is generally half on order half on completion (photograph).
Make sure you can get insured/trackable shipping both ways.
Only pay by Paypal so you get buyer protection.

Start by checking the Painting Service listings on sites like TMP (something it is useful for), any professional service will have a website (although that said some smaller one man bands work by recommendation only so it is generally invite only there). Find the style you like and the prices within your budget.
Contact them direct and discuss your needs/preferences.
Remember this is a "contract" to all intent and purpose so be specific.

I have done it from both sides, 20 yrs+ on commission until my eye accident put an end to it and since as a customer.

And just so as you know:
One to avoid: Sean Duncan trading as Battlegrounds-Wargaming out of Ontario Canada, I have started Police action against this scumbag for theft/deception in an attempt to get my money and figures back.

[Elk101]

I have once bought painted figures from eBay, which isn't quite the same, but has a few of the same issues. I bought them because the price seemed decent at about £5 a mounted figure and they were marketed as 'pro painted' (yes, I know!). This was extravagant for me but for £2 a figure over the retail price of bare metal it got some painted figures on the table and they filled a gap I needed filled. When they arrived, the riders were indeed very well painted, the horses really not so much and the basing, well let's say it looked like it had been dipped in polyfilla with grassd flock catapulted on by indirect fire. You couldn't tell this particularly well from the photo. A repaint of the horses and rebasing and they were great, but I don't think I'd do it again.

Getting a painter to paint to your spec should be a different case though. I've considered going down that route for my moderns if only to get a decent camo job but I hate to think how much it might cost. I have considered approaching some of the pro painters that I like the style of to get a quote and that could be a good starting point for you?

Cheers

[Blackwolf]

To give you an idea and perspective of the hazards you may face; I have been asked many times to do paid commission work.I won't,it's just too much of a minefield. I do however do free commissions for friends and these are normally design commissions,terrain that sort of thing.

[Cubs]

Every painter has their own price list and policies. There isn't a 'Guild of Painters' or anything, it's just a case of mooching about and finding one you like the style of. If you go on TMP or WaMP you will no doubt run into a few.

I do commish work for companies, not private individuals any more, but my policies are -

1) Someone emails me describing what they want painted and I give them a quote.
2) If they accept they send the models to me for painting.
3) When finished I send a photo of the completed models and they either accept them or request changes to how they are painted.
4) I invoice the customer via Paypal and when they pay, I send the models to them.
5) If they don't pay, or they delay payment beyond an unacceptable amount of time (I give 30 days) then I keep the models and that customer is on the blacklist.
6) I always use a trackable postage service with insurance (added to the bill) so if there are any issues with damage during transit I can claim it back.

The customer may pay up front if they wish (some people like to get it out of the way) but I never post models without payment. If a customer wants a specific colour scheme it is their job to let me know, otherwise I won't know.

You could ask if a painter does free samples (I never have), or you could just send a couple of models to dip your toe, so to speak, until you find a service you trust. Good luck with it.

[Elk101]

Interestingly enough Cubs is one of the painters I really like!

[Major_Gilbear]

There's a fair few articles a round the web about this topic actually, including a pretty good one on Pins of War.

What I would say personally is this:

1) Know what you want. Seriously, either you have to be very specific, or accept the decisions of your commissioned painter. I work in the construction industry, and clients not knowing what they want (or equally sometimes, not allowing any flexibility) is the #1 way to drive up the price and spoil an otherwise good business relationship.

2) Linked to (1) above, there has to be a reasonable level of trust. You need to be confident about the level of what you'll receive, and the painter needs to be confident that what they're doing will be to your satisfaction. Either request some photographed examples of work, send them a sample of your own painting, or if they are local maybe meet them in person. I would also start with a "lesser" or small commission - perhaps a warband that you want to play, but which isn't your favourite for example - to test the waters first.

3) Also linked closely to (1) and (2) above, make sure you both agree everything in writing, including the price and the commission delivery date. This helps to seal your agreements in a professional way should anything go awry, and it also acts a reference point for later (especially if the commission is some way off, it's a good memory-refresher of what you agreed).

4) Be realistic. Some painters will undercharge for their time as a favour if you know them, but part of the deal might be an uneven level of painting or a flexible delivery period. Others might be quite strict with what they will do, charge a higher price, but then deliver exactly what was agreed - no more/less. You need to weigh up the pros and cons of each, and factor in what risk you are prepared to take vs what price you are willing to pay. It is not unreasonable to spend a few hours plus materials on a single miniature, so a per-model rate would reflect this.

5) It's not unusual to pay for about half the commission cost plus the models up-front, and then pay the rest of the balance when the models are shipped back to you. This is best done via PayPal invoice rather than other payment methods as if affords you both a measure of protection should anything go wrong. The small extra premium you pay for "commercial" PayPal transactions is very worthwhile and important, so don't be tempted to skip it to save a couple of pounds. I would also insist on fully-tracked and insured shipping unless the painter can deliver the models to you in person.


Finally, a few further thoughts:

1) Painters are human, and sometimes unforeseen events beyond either of your control happen. This is part of the risk you take, and it's worth asking/agreeing what the protocol is should this happen. This may encompass family emergencies/deaths, injuries/accidents, financial/cashflow issues, or similar.

2) Ask yourself what you're really paying for. If you're paying for blocked-in colours and a drybrush/dip/wash approach, you might be better off doing it yourself - perhaps rope a friend in to help you for a weekend in exchange for a pizza and a film, returning the favour in a similar manner, or such.

3) If you have some skill, and some time, but struggle with finishing/details, maybe see if you can commission a "finishing" package rather than a whole paintjob. For example, find somebody to paint the faces and hands on a batch of models that you've otherwise painted quickly yourself. This might make the commission cheaper for you, and simpler for your painter. It would also allow you to game with your figures in the meantime.

[Too Bo Coo]

Another idea, I read in WSS a few issues back, is to buy prepainted minis from ebay as suggested before and then do light work to make the bases uniform and some touchups to make them all uniform-or-so.  it may be more hit and miss as to availability, but if you're not on a strict timeline, it may be a good and economic compromise.

[Cubs]

3) Also linked closely to (1) and (2) above, make sure you both agree everything in writing, including the price and the commission delivery date. This helps to seal your agreements in a professional way should anything go awry, and it also acts a reference point for later (especially if the commission is some way off, it's a good memory-refresher of what you agreed).

This is a good point. I always give a ball park estimate of completion time, without a rock-solid guarantee of exactly when I'll be done ... because I just don't know. Often it overruns, that just seems to be the way of it, and once in a while the job is finished early.

Now if the client needs the models by a certain time (companies are notorious for suddenly contacting me way too late, asking for a load of stuff to be done for a show), I will only take the job on if I know for sure I can get it done by that date.

Interestingly enough Cubs is one of the painters I really like!

Hey, thanks!

[maxxon]

I'm finding zero time to paint figures at the moment and to be honest wondering if I will get any time at all in the near future (i.e. five years)

Really?

If you don't want to paint, that's just fine.

But if you honestly do want to paint but find it hard to find the time... it's really a question of priorities and organization.

I spent something over 700 hours last year painting (estimated, I don't keep an hourly log -- but I do know I was painting on 239 days last year and typically paint 2-3 hours on weeknights and longer on weekends). I am employed full-time (not painting), I have a family, I have a gaming night once a week and I even have other hobbies.

How do I do it?

Here's a few pointers:

1) Try to have a dedicated workspace. That cuts down the setup/teardown times.
2) Make it a routine. Get home, eat dinner, go paint. Don't stop to think what you want to do tonight, just do it.
3) Get rid of stupid time-wasting activities. I for example have stopped watching TV almost completely. I don't touch the computer at home (I read LAF on breaks at work).

I understand things can be more difficult if for example your job requires a lot of travelling, but even then solutions can be found.

[Cubs]

3) Get rid of stupid time-wasting activities. I for example have stopped watching TV almost completely. I don't touch the computer at home (I read LAF on breaks at work).

"Get back to work!!"

[Major_Gilbear]

Get rid of stupid time-wasting activities. I for example have stopped watching TV almost completely.

I am forced to agree with this; if you have limited time, you have to choose what to do and prioritise accordingly - even though this may mean dropping certain activities in favour of others.

That said:

- Some people "watch" TV whilst they are painting

- I'm fairly sure the OP was after commissioning tips rather than a "Sort your life out, Son" talk!

[carlos13th]

That said the op may very well value other actives more than they value painting. If someone prefers to watch game of throne than paint that's fine. I thinks all know that usually when people say they don't have time for something they mean they cannot fit itnintontheir schedule in a way that is acceptable to them and there is nothing wrong with that.

[itchy]

I am lucky My Local Games store has 2 figure painters one Wargaming Standard and one an amazing standard I have had bits done by both and no complaints ,if you are lucky to live near a store that offers service like this then you can always pop in and view both standards .

[AndrewBeasley]

Really?
If you don't want to paint, that's just fine.
But if you honestly do want to paint but find it hard to find the time... it's really a question of priorities and organization.

Agree totally.  Painting is one of the MANY activities I do enjoy and I have to decide if I give up some things or not.  Currently this is one thing I can outsource and still get pleasure from - a win as far as I see.  Other things are not so easy to give up or source elsewhere (esp photography / editing / study) so the plan stands 

So far the comments have been great - had not thought about ebay etc as I have the models and the tips on priority will help others.

Reading and merging gives me:

1) Contract / contract / contract but allow for 'one man band' rather than commercial operation is structure
2) Mates rates may not help
3) Dip toe in water
4) Make sure you like the style
5) Decide what / how I want the figures done
6) Tidy up figures first (advantage of 15mm here)

This has really helped.
Andrew