Burgundian Wars

[RedRowan]

Can anyone recommend any books that give a good introduction or overview of the Burgundian Wars?

With the coming release of the new Perry Men at Arms I am itching to do something with all the unpainted late medieval plastics I already have from them. I originally bought them for a War of the Roses project but felt games of mainly archers and billmen would become a little boring. Much more interested in the other European armies of the time with their varied troop types but do not know where to start in terms finding out more.

Any recommendations from people?

Many thanks

Steve

[Arlequín]

Actually I can't suggest any good books... but the respective Osprey's (presuming they are still in print) on the Burgundians and Swiss are a good enough intro to those armies for a taste.

...but felt games of mainly archers and billmen would become a little boring. Much more interested in the other European armies of the time with their varied troop types...

I see what you mean, but you'll find all European armies are all somewhat as samey (but not quite perhaps) as the English in terms of their own troop types too. They all had their 'bread and butter' units, with only a few 'unique' aspects to set them apart in terms of variety. For the Swiss it's pretty much all pikes and halberds, same for the Low Countries, men at arms and generally poor quality massed halberdiers/pikes, supported by massed crossbows/archers for the French and Burgundians and so on.   

Okay in the WotR both sides are pretty much the same, so I can see why collecting two different armies appeals, it's part of what pushed me into an interest in Europe myself... the trade off is that there is little to read about them without a lot of effort sourcing materials in other languages, whichever ones you actually speak yourself.

I think it's worth it, but I do sometimes envy those who can walk into a Waterstones and select a book on the WotrR from a selection of maybe ten or so on the shelf.
  

[Atheling]

The Vaughan book on Charles the Bold does have info on his Ordonnances and is very useful:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Charles-Bold-Valois-Burgundy-History/dp/0851159184/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1403693374&sr=1-1&keywords=charles+the+bold

For an earlier Burgundian army the Vaughan book on his predecessor Philip the Good is good for the Battle of Monthlery and his rivalry with the French throne etc:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Philip-Good-Apogee-Burgundy-History/dp/0851159176/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y

Otherwise the Ospreys for the Swiss and the burgundians aren't bad at all for a starting point- in fact I would probably buy them first so you can get painting  .

Hope that helps?

Darrell.

[RedRowan]

Thanks for the help guys. I had the Ospreys in mind as I always feel they are a good starting point, just wanted to know what else to look out for.

In terms of the limited troop types for the WotrR I suppose part of my reasoning is just wanting to use lots of cavalry and some of the other more exotic looking figures that the Perry's produce in the range.

Steve

[Atheling]

Thanks for the help guys. I had the Ospreys in mind as I always feel they are a good starting point, just wanted to know what else to look out for.

Steve, I don't know how but yesterday I forgot to mention the brilliant The Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold, The Ordonnance Companies and their Captains, Pat McGill, Armand Pacou & Rod Erskine Riddel  it is what most people who build up a Burgundian Army use as it is packed with text, images of banners, standards and 'Cornets' etc, It really is an excellent booklet:

It's available from the Lance and Longbow Society here:

http://lanceandlongbow.com/shop/publication.php?ID=Pub-033

Lance and Longbow Society Shop here:

http://lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php

Cheers,
Darrell.

[Arlequín]

Steve, I don't know how but yesterday I forgot to mention the brilliant The Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold, The Ordonnance Companies and their Captains, Pat McGill, Armand Pacou & Rod Erskine Riddel  it is what most people who build up a Burgundian Army use as it is packed with text, images of banners, standards and 'Cornets' etc, It really is an excellent booklet:

I forgot that too, well remembered. Personally I think it's a bit pricey, but indeed in terms of detail included it is a must have.

In terms of the limited troop types for the WotrR I suppose part of my reasoning is just wanting to use lots of cavalry and some of the other more exotic looking figures that the Perry's produce in the range.

I won't bore you with a lengthy argument for English cavalry in the Wars of the Roses, but not being faced with overwhelming numbers of French cavalry, the English would have been more inclined to use what they had and apparently did. The Tudors certainly did and the change didn't just happen overnight.

You'll find Low Countries mercenaries (handgunners and most likely pikes too) in Yorkist armies from 1460 and French troops in some Lancastrian ones from the same period. Henry VIIs French/Breton contingent is usually written off as poor quality, but evidence suggests that they were arguably what won him the battle. Some at least were drawn from recently disbanded French 'professional' infantry trained by the Swiss.

I'm not trying to put you off a European army and indeed there is potentially more colour and variety in one, especially Charles's Army... but neither are the English as dull and bland as they first appear.
   

[RedRowan]

Steve, I don't know how but yesterday I forgot to mention the brilliant The Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold, The Ordonnance Companies and their Captains, Pat McGill, Armand Pacou & Rod Erskine Riddel  it is what most people who build up a Burgundian Army use as it is packed with text, images of banners, standards and 'Cornets' etc, It really is an excellent booklet:

Thanks for the link Darrell, much appreciated.

Atheling, using mercenaries to add other troop types is something I've been thinking about and an option I may explore. Will have a chat with my gaming buddy I think and see what they feel would be more interesting.

Again, thanks for the help guys.

Steve

[Atheling]

Thanks for the link Darrell, much appreciated.

Atheling, using mercenaries to add other troop types is something I've been thinking about and an option I may explore. Will have a chat with my gaming buddy I think and see what they feel would be more interesting.

Again, thanks for the help guys.

Steve

No probs Steve, glad to help  .

There's a host of Mercenary types that were involved to some degree in the Wars of the Roses as well as most European conflicts in the Late Middle Ages so i wouldn't let the 'samey' flavour of some of the army lists out there etc put you off playing the games you want.

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

Mercenaries are a good way of introducing colour. Contrary to what some people may think, Louis XI and Charles did not donate a part of their actual army to their respective chosen factions, but gave leave to recruit in their lands and provided some cash to help things along. The actual troops raised could conceivably be from anywhere, although typically were locally recruited from what was around, either individually or as entire 'companies' in some cases - there were a considerable number of mercenary companies around, not just in Italy. If there was the potential for war, there was the potential for mercenaries.

We have a Spanish captain at Bosworth (Juan de Salazar), who had previously served Marie of Burgundy, Martin Schwartz was originally from Bavaria and had led Swiss and Germans in the service of Charles the Bold as early as 1475. Pierre de Brézé was variously a French commander before Louis XI was crowned, but somewhat out of favour afterwards and turned to being a privateer before joining the Lancastrians, leading French financed mercenaries. His return to royal favour took an able and experienced commander away from them.

Although the troops Edward bought back from the Low Countries in 1470 included 500 handgunners, whose presence is often mentioned, he apparently bought back around 2,000 men in total, which don't get mentioned, largely as we don't know what they were, the handguns being the novelty item worthy of mention.      

Even quite lowly families were not above hiring them. The Pastons hired a 'Burgundian' handgunner and a French crossbowman, along with some others, to help defend Caister castle against the Duke of Norfolk (the Mowbray one), so small or large contingents are possible whatever type of game you're looking at.

[RedRowan]

Thanks Arlequin, that's some great information there!

Steve