Need some help with the cathars of the Albigensian Crusades

[CaptainHaddonCollider]

Hi all,
I'm currently looking into the Albigensian Crusades as a possible period for medieval wargaming, but I'm having a spot of trouble with the OOB for the forces of the cathars. Were the cathars armies mainly based on infantry, cavalry or were they a mix of both? What sort of troops could you find in a cathar army, and how did they differntiate (if at all) from the royalist french armies sent against them?

I've read the Osprey Fortress booklet on the matter of cathar castles, but it's not giving up much information on the matter. If anyone have some good titles on militarum matters of the albigensian Crusades, I'd be most interested in hearing about them.

Thank you for your time and patience!

[Argonor]

I don't think the cathars had an army as such. They defended their cities/castles against the crusaders as best they could, and really never stood a chance.

[former user]

the symbol is the Cathar cross, and since it means "the pure"  You could use white or blue as some corporate appearance. But I don't think they were in any way recognizable by other than local blazons, either from the cities or the nobles involved - same goes for the organization

[julesav]

The only forces the Cathars had were those of friendly Barons in the 'Occitan' speaking areas of Languedoc, mainly the forces of the Counts of Toulouse and Barcelona.

Accordingly what 'army' they could field was similar to their Feudal opponents. You could possibly add Cathar levy troops but I can't see them being of any more military value than other poor quality militia.

It's a fascinating period, but possibly more game-able as a skirmish game than a battle games. The forthcoming Osprey Lion Rampant rules might be useful for this project.

[former user]

and given that they hated war, I would go for a militia theme

[CaptainHaddonCollider]

It's a fascinating period, but possibly more game-able as a skirmish game than a battle games. The forthcoming Osprey Lion Rampant rules might be useful for this project.

I was thinking the same thing, and I'm somewhat on the fence with the albigensian crusade and the Scottish Wars. I'm mainly attracted to the albigensian crusade because it's not something you see a lot of around here, and I believe that the possiblities for conversions and themed forces are quite good with the fireforge stuff.

Although I realise that it's a rather one-sided thing, I think there is a good chance that I could make up some siege rules for the lion rampant or Scottorum Malleus game, evening out the odds just a smidgen.

Thanks for all the replies, very useful stuff!

[former user]

" Arnaud-Amaury, the Cistercian abbot-commander, is supposed to have been asked how to tell Cathars from Catholics. His reply, recalled by Caesar of Heisterbach, a fellow Cistercian, thirty years later was "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."—"Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own."[55][56]"


but I guess, since they were regarded as proto-feminist, You could add a unit of women warriors

[georgec]

Just sat on my decking in the sunshine   in the Languedoc so where better to reply from!

It could be argued that, while the Pope was warred about heretics, de Montfort and his crusaders were more interested in the promised siezure of lands and the opportunities for looting the Occitan. It also rather suited the French kings to have the patchwork of independent lands between their Kingdom and the Pyrenees 'broken' and moved under the control of men who were already vassals.

I would suggest that, if you want any sort of even battle, you are probably looking at the Crusaders against the forces of the Occitan lords, particularly Raymond of Tolouse and Peter of Aragon, and the local communes who were on the edge of the religion, sympathetic, or just dragged in because the Crusaders were after land and spoils.  I would suggest that you are looking at a very similar army to the Crusaders, but with perhaps some of the armoure and traits of Spanish armies if you are looking a a bit of flavour.  

If you want a few 'hardcore' Cathars as priests or civilians ( they were pacifist) I seem to recall yellow was a colour associated with their spiritual elite (the bonhommes or perfecti) but I might be mistaken as it was also the colour of cross worn by former 'heretics' to mark them out for surveillance.  Perhaps a local can give you better information than some tourist.  A bientot!

[CaptainHaddonCollider]

Aha, our man in Languedoc has spoken!

I think the possibility of including some spanish flavoured troops would be inspired, and an oppotunity to look into a part of the medieval world I've yet to discover. Also, I've always had a soft spot for the peasant milita models from various companies, so this seems to be a fine oppotunity to include them in an army (or warband, or raiding force or whatnot).

It's nice with some names on the table of the pro- and antagonists involved, since most of the general litterature on the subject found on the webs are very vague on the matter of individuals. So thank you very much!

[Argonor]

It's a fascinating period, but possibly more game-able as a skirmish game than a battle games.

Second that - then again, the number of minis used in most 'battle' games easily allow for 1/1 small conflicts.

[Smith]

If you want a few 'hardcore' Cathars

Bernard de Cazenac was a pretty ferocious hold-out in the Dordogne:

Bernard de Casnac (Cosnac or Cazenac),the lord of Castelnaud at the beginning of the 13th century, also owned the castles at Domme, Aillac and Montfort.
He married Alix de Turenne, one of the “three ladies of Turenne” who inspired the troubadours of the day.
Fervent and ferocious defenders of the Cathar faith, they were known for their cruelty towards Roman Catholics.
The northern baron Simon de Montfort, sent down to crush the Cathars in the so-called “Albigensian crusade”, had no difficulty in capturing and destroying Domme and Montfort (the castle to the east of Vitrac - no connection with his own name).
He then turned his attention to Castelnaud;   having seized it, in 1214, he decided to
take over the fortress and install a garrison there so as to put down any subsequent uprisings.
The following year, Bernard de Casnac took the castle’s governor by surprise, recaptured it and had the entire garrison hanged.    A few months later, however, he was finally ejected by an army sent by the Archbishop of Bordeaux, who ordered the original castle to be burned down.

From: http://www.castelnaud.com/uk/index.php?rub=historique2

[julesav]

This thread and the links therein is well worth a look:

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=59819.0

I think that a 'Spanish' look might be a good way to differentiate your 'heretics' from your 'Crusaders'.

As ever the chance to loot, pillage, rape etc etc ad nauseam with a promise of heaven should it all go a bit 'Pete Tong' is a heady incentive! As mentioned above I think the 'Crusade' was also about extending French Royal power and moving the border area further towards Spain - a French Royal goal since at least Charlemagne's time.  As usual in any 'civil war' scenario there was a fair bit of 'score settling' on a local level too.The 'crusade' bit is probably tertiary at least!

[rampantlion]

It is a fascinating time period, but I agree, probably better for small scale actions.  The only real "battle" that I remember reading about is Muret in 1213 I believe.  It was a small force of knights under DeMontfort that sallied out of a castle and routed a huge force under the King of Aragon Pedro II?.  I ran a wargame for that one years ago, but it is a hard game to balance due to disparity in force sizes and huge mistakes by commander facing the crusaders.

[CaptainHaddonCollider]

If I'm not totally mistanken Muret was more of a rout than an actual battle. It could be a great what-if-scenario though.

As a sidenote, I stumbled upon this: http://www.cathar.info/120550_crusadersarms.htm

Alledgedly CoA for all participating nobles. Does anyone with a passing knowledge of french heraldry know if these a legit?

[rumacara]

Well, i´m not expert in heraldry but i think you came across a very usefull site with the coats of arms from the participants.
At least i recognise some that are legitim.