A question of scale

[tin shed gamer]

If a couple of people are interested then I'll start it this coming week and post in the workbench section of the forum, in stages as it will take a little time to write, photograph,and build,Also fit in between paid work.(plus once I start a personal project.I get a lot of grief from people wanting to know why I'm not working on their commission.I don't work 24-7.no one does.)It will be the fokker F vii. its the one which will lend its self to the methods the best.
Mark.

[OSHIROmodels]

Gets my vote 

cheers

James

[Connectamabob]

The whole scale and proportion discussion comes from customers  (us)  not wanting to accept that from the sculptor's and manufacturer's point of view, it is an instrument of differentiation, be it for artistic individualism or probably more often, for market dominiation. The more a company is shareholder value oriented, the more the latter is valid.
It pretty much sums up to that formula: "if You want to buy my miniatures, they won't fit with any others, so You will pretty much have to stick with buying only mine"

Well, I'd frame it more as the manufacturers not wanting to accept the customers' POV than the other way around. The way you phrase it makes it sound like the customers are the ones being unreasonable for not wanting to get used instead of served.

I do sci-fi/fantasy mostly, so scale is pretty negotiable. Since the stuff I'm dealing with often doesn't have a IRL counterpart, I can take many liberties like changing the size of seats and such to alter a vehicles scale to fit.

Designs with bad/toylike proportions bug me way more than overall scale being slightly off one way or another. The sci-fi world abounds with fighters and shuttles that are all cockpit and engine with nothing in between, and ginormous motorbikes/hoverbikes that are the exact opposite.

[former user]

Well, I'd frame it more as the manufacturers not wanting to accept the customers' POV than the other way around. The way you phrase it makes it sound like the customers are the ones being unreasonable for not wanting to get used instead of served.

exactly so  , concerning the discussion, because the discusion is rather pointless, that being my point. The reasonable customer reaction would be to counteract such marketing strategies and not follow the market leader (GW, Warlord, Perry, whatever). Instead a lot is argued about "scales"  blahblah, like they were a natural occurence and not a deliberate choice by the producer...

but the point of this topic is actually the opposite, asking the customers what they want, and this is a good thing

[tin shed gamer]

 I'm sorry its not a Dan Brown book.It has been an organic and customer lead process of many,many years (at least 35years).
There was a time you couldn't get much more than black powder or swords and sandel's in smaller scales,and people used airfix style plastic figures to do 20th centuary.Then manufactures caught up with demand and produced 15mm and 20mm figures and then vehicles,people still used cross over kits until things evened out price/availability.
Twenty years ago there were next to no dark age figures in 28mm now you can't move for them. Its the same for vehicles in 28mm.
Customers asked for vehicles to fit in with 28's as they can't find scale models that fit,because they don't cross over well.
Unless you only make vehicles,(in which case you aim to build to the mean sizing of most companies figures.)You do size vehicles to fit with your own figures first and if they fit in with others then thats fine.
Empress have just posted there new rolls royce.They clearly state its made to fit their figures first,and best.Now thats a doubled edged sword.
I have nine design briefs this month from five different manufactures and not one uses modeling scales,all state to make to fit 28's or 15's.
I've been running an offer for WW1 through 1st Corps,on this forum for a while now and the abuse I've had when I've said that the project is unmarketable but I'll talk you through one.and it always ends them and us comments (which is the cleaned up version).
There are manufactures out there for everyones sizing preferences,it doesn't mean they'll cover every thing you want."market leader's"are only that because people buy their products.These days people vote with their feet.thats why small company's vanish,too limited a product base.

[Connectamabob]

exactly so  , concerning the discussion, because the discusion is rather pointless, that being my point. The reasonable customer reaction would be to counteract such marketing strategies and not follow the market leader (GW, Warlord, Perry, whatever). Instead a lot is argued about "scales"  blahblah, like they were a natural occurence and not a deliberate choice by the producer...

but the point of this topic is actually the opposite, asking the customers what they want, and this is a good thing

I don't really understand what you are trying to say. Yes: if a customer doesn't like how he/she is being treated by a company, the best solution is to buy from someone else who will treat them fairly instead.

However I'm not sure what it is you are defining as unreasonable or why. You say "arguing about scale" but if that's just customers arguing amongst each other I don't see how that has any bearing on the manufacturers or their Wile E. Coyote schemings. It's just different people debating their own preferences with their peers.

Nor would I consider telling a company "you're doing it wrong" to be unreasonable. It'll rarely be productive, unfortunately, but that's not the same as unjustified, especially in a luxury market. The customers are only being honest by telling them what they want. If the companies don't listen or deal in good faith for whatever reason, it's their risk and their responsibility, not the customers'. Implying that customers are in any way obligated to respect the POV of a manufacturer who wants to exploit or manipulate them is ridiculous.

[Michi]

1/50 for trucks and tanks if possible, 1/48 if I have to.
1/60 for modern cars where I can

After a week of being the only one who voted f0r 1/60 I feel I should clarify my point of view.
I see things similar to Paul here. For WW2 there is a variety of 1/50 die casts and 1/48 kits available that will hardly be achieved by 1/56 and most probably not at that price.

For modern I tend to 1/64 to 1/60 cars due to the price. Bigger models are at least double their price and most often several times that (given you´d buy a Matchbox or Hot Wheels car at around 1.50€ and repaint it a bit instead of purchasing a Johnny Lightning collectible). Regretfully it is hard to find trucks in that scale, although Corgi Super Haulers are a good bet for modern.

[tin shed gamer]

  a point well made.I got so busy explaining  why I voted other,that I forgot to vote.
But your post shows clearly the point I was trying to make.
As sculpters we build to fit the 28's of the client.So I vote other.
As a gamer I buy what ever toy car/model kit I feel will best cross over to wargaming.(you yourself posted several scales you use with 28's)when I can't find or afford the purpose built 28mm vehicle.So again I have to vote other.Because I'd have to tick nearly every box.
Because the nature of gaming puts us on first name terms with the mother of invention.There is no true scale because of personal taste.
If we didn't improvise the forums would be lifeless photocopiers of standard figures in standard shades.

[former user]

@Connectamabob
yes, we are going a bit sideways with this thing, I don't want to derail the topic any more, please sent a PM if You want me to clarify more

[FramFramson]

Oh do share you tease!!! I've almost bid on a number of 1/72 tri motors myself.. and watched a number of 1/48 Ju-52's! 

I had the same thought at first, but my god! A 1:48 Ju-52 would be an absolute monster on the tabletop. At the end of the day, the fact that it has a low wing is what decided me. It's simply too huge.

Here are the best plans I've found online (I'm direct linking the images so the forum software won't resize them):

F.VII: http://www.dutch-aviation.nl/pictures/Fokker/Civil/Fokker%20F7a%20technische%20tekening.jpg
Revised F.XVII (there were many variations, so there's plenty of room for fudging things): http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/fokker_f18_3v.jpg

Also, one trick is to make the size of the passenger door and the windows ever so slightly larger than they should be in 1:56. This will make it feel a bit more in scale and is a trick not-dissimilar to the larger head and hand sizes of many 28mm minis. 





Those have all been mailed to Tin Shed.

And that's enough derail - back to more general scale questions. We can wait for Tin Shed's thread to talk further about interwar aircraft!

[OSHIROmodels]

Love the wicker garden seats in that 

cheers

James

[Bayushiseni]

1:56 when I think about models of vehicles, planes and tanks that really exist. It seems right with the size of the minis.
When I using sci-fi models I accept to go up to 1:48.

[maxxon]

it is probably a bit small for 28mm but serves a purpose

IMHO, the larger the "real" object is, the smaller it needs to be scaled on the table to remain a functional gaming item.

[FramFramson]

IMHO, the larger the "real" object is, the smaller it needs to be scaled on the table to remain a functional gaming item.

I agree, it's just that my tolerance brackets are slightly finer than most. For instance that 1:72 plane above is serviceable from a pure gameplay point of view, but it's just small enough that it annoys the hell out of my desire for verisimilitude. If I need a smaller, more gamable plane because a larger plane won't fit in a given board or scenario, then I should get a plane which was smaller in real life. If on the other hand the scenario demands a bigger plane designed to hold many passengers, I would actually like it to be a bit larger, and to be a real obstacle on the board.

[tin shed gamer]

wish granted I'll be posting the first part tomorrow.I've made the plane nearly to scale (or will do when I finished)Wing span of 35cm.and I've extended the body length.I've made it this size just to make it easier to see construction methods.