Stoke Field 1487

[Big Martin Back]

Looking good.

[Gangleri]

A little update - all I could manage over the past few weeks.  It's Francis Lovell, 1st Viscount Lovell, friend of Richard III and the "dogge" from the famous Tudor propaganda couplet.



Photo isn't great, but I haven't been able to take photos outside on account of the weather.  The two gentlemen (Lovell and his standard bearer) you've already seen, but the rest is new.  When I can eventually get my hands on the new metal standard bearer set (having a hard time find them in the States), I will give Lovell someone to bear his personal arms.

Particularly like the overarm, high thrusting bill in the first picture. Never used those arms that way before - thanks for the inspiration! (I.e. - I shall nick that! )

Fulsome praise indeed!

Thanks to everyone for the nice comments.  More info on Lovell (and photos) at http://stokefield.blogspot.com/

[Metternich]

Excellent to see Lord Lovell - a loyal friend indeed.  (The Tudor couplet is, if I remember correctly, "The Cat, the Rat, and Lovell the Dogge, rule all England under the Hogg - referring to Catesby, Ratcliffe, Lovell, and the Hogg is, of course, the white boar badge of Richard III)

[Gangleri]

Was away on vacation for a little while, and then work caught up with me upon my return, so it's taken a while to do the next batch.  Here's a group shot of the last dozen Englishmen I've managed to complete.



Another awful photo, but I keep switching cameras and can never get the settings right.

More (and better) photos on my blog.

[Dave Knight]

What rules do you intend to use?

[Romark]

Nice collection,will follow this with interest.

[Atheling]

Very nice work  .

Talking of Stoke Field, I *think* that Michael hinted to me that there will be some Irish Galloglais and Kerns added to the Wars of the Roses/Cousins War range at some point. As I say, I *think*.

Darrell.

[Atheling]

On the subject of Stoke Field, where the Irish troops were noted for their lack of armour, these soon to be released Irish Kern from Claymore Castings may be of use:





Claymore Castings:
http://www.claymorecastings.co.uk/

I guess there's a whole discussion to be had on the equipment of many of the Irish troops at Stoke Field...... 

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

From what I remember of the near-contemporary sources, Molinet actually says it was the Germans (the other source in Leland's Collectanea calls them 'Duche') who suffered badly from bowfire, being only 'half-armed'... the Irish barely get a mention. The usual source used is Virgil, who tells us the Irish were unarmoured, but he was writing the 'official Tudor History' in the 1520s, so hardly unbiased nor contemporary. It's Virgil who says 2,000 Germans, while Molinet says 4-500 and Molinet was largely writing about the Low Countries as a matter of course, so I expect he knew what he was talking about.

So I wonder what troops did come from Ireland? Thomas Fitzgerald was Chancellor of Ireland, so hardly an insignificant person. The 'English Pale' round Dublin was Set up like an English county (including the requirements to practice archery etc), while Fitzgerald's estates were in Kildare. I sort of imagine him bringing over Irish bows and bills, but I cant see him bringing Kerns... there were plenty of low status Englishmen available, so why hire ships to bring over even more low-status Irishmen?

Discuss.    

[Stuart]

You make me think with every post Arlequin !

[Atheling]

I guess there's a whole discussion to be had on the equipment of many of the Irish troops at Stoke Field...... 

Darrell.


[/quote

From what I remember of the near-contemporary sources, Molinet actually says it was the Germans (the other source in Leland's Collectanea calls them 'Duche') who suffered badly from bowfire, being only 'half-armed'... the Irish barely get a mention. The usual source used is Virgil, who tells us the Irish were unarmoured, but he was writing the 'official Tudor History' in the 1520s, so hardly unbiased nor contemporary. It's Virgil who says 2,000 Germans, while Molinet says 4-500 and Molinet was largely writing about the Low Countries as a matter of course, so I expect he knew what he was talking about.

So I wonder what troops did come from Ireland? Thomas Fitzgerald was Chancellor of Ireland, so hardly an insignificant person. The 'English Pale' round Dublin was Set up like an English county (including the requirements to practice archery etc), while Fitzgerald's estates were in Kildare. I sort of imagine him bringing over Irish bows and bills, but I cant see him bringing Kerns... there were plenty of low status Englishmen available, so why hire ships to bring over even more low-status Irishmen?

Discuss.    

That's what I was thinking- would they have been the more traditional Irish troop types or armoured in a similar fashion to that of the English?. I must have got confused between the German's lacking good armours and the Irish troops. Still, I reckon that the economy of England at the time would have been able to support better equipped troops then that of Ireland, but that is supposition if I'm to be honest. 

It's a question that really hasn't been answered to any degree of satisfaction within academia, at least for me.

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

You make me think with every post Arlequin !

My work here is done. 

That's what I was thinking- would they have been the more traditional Irish troop types or armoured in a similar fashion to that of the English?

I can't say I know much about Ireland at the time, other than odd snippets... but presuming FitzG hired some Gallowglaich, I presume they had 'servants' (i.e. Kern) on the strength, just as seems to be the case in 1521?



I forget which source, but it mentions "those found to be English or Irish were hanged". I may be reading too much into that but I gather for most traditional Irish troop types there wouldn't be too much 'finding' involved, unless some did not look 'typically Irish' (or even English?).

Yep, I'm intrigued too... but I guess we'll never know.

[Gangleri]

Thanks to all for the replies.  Having trouble getting the quotes to stack up properly, so forgive me for not responding directly to your comments.

Here are my thoughts on the Irish at Stoke. I suspect they were much more varied in equipment and appearance that the 'traditional' assessment suggests.  Doubtless there were groups of kern among them, but Sir Thomas's personal retinue and any troops raised in the Pale would surely have been more English in their style and armament.  Even the wealthiest Irish, however, were somewhat behind the times, as it were.  The tomb effigy of Piers Butler, 8th Earl Ormond (died 1539), has him in a distinctly old-fashioned armor, and he a well-to-do man forty years after Stoke. 
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/_internal/gxml!0/m6s6aicjogoampxnh1a9dzzq7k4g1nn$g7xglwt5atx97om8iia0qeialwqa3xg

I also no reason not to conclude that there was a battle of Gallowglass (or perhaps more than one) present at Stoke, since Kildare made regular use of them in Ireland, and it was common practice for great families to retain Gallowglass septs, sometimes over the course of generations. 

I've allotted three bases for the Irish in the army list.  One will be for the 'naked Irish,' the second for a battle of Gallowglass and their 'boyes,' and the third for men drawn from the Pale.  I'd planned to use mainly Claymore miniatures, with the Otterburn Scots standing in for the more regular Irish and with a few Perry Agincourt guys as well for the old-fashioned armors.

[Gangleri]

Been quite busy with work, but I've managed to get some painting in now and again.  Two bases of the English are now finished (apart from basing), and another wants only one of the new metal standard bearers (haven't been able to get a hold of them yet), which means one third of the army is nearly complete. 


Archers


Billmen


Flags.  There was some discussion a while back on one of Stuart's Tudor threads about flags for Richard de la Pole, and I think that with a few alterations, either/both of these would work for him.  Happy to provide them upon request.  The blue one is obviously adapted from one of Richard III's banners to show the close relation between Richard and Lincoln, and the other one appears to have been used commonly by John de la Pole and his sons.

More can be seen on my blog.

[painterman]

Nice collection you're doing - some great poses with the plastic assemblies.
I'd like to follow you blog - but not sure if the have the function switched on to allow followers to get your updates - if you're Ok with that of course?
Otherwise I'll keep track on here.
Simon.