Dead Man's Hand Down Under

[Kommando_J]

Indeed, please keep on track, folks. This is the DMH thread for discussing the new releases. If you would like to discuss the political dimensions of frontier wars or any cruelties caused during that conflict, please do that on an appropriate site in the net. There are many. Otherwise this thread will be locked.

Too true, I love the police gang the most, the Ned Kelly gang looks great if a little robotic. Getting on what bong-67 said, any other ranges suitable for mixing with?

My one criticism of DMH is that they don't make enough! i'd love to see some supplement packs.

[Ray Earle]

Good call bong-67 I've been trying to think of an excuse for buying the Lucknow defenders, now I have one. 

I've been considering this same issue and I've come up with the following to use along with the DMH sets. For bushrangers I think there are figures usable from the IHMN Brick lane commune and IHMN Lord Currs company. There are various figures from Brigade games Gangs of New York range too.

For the Police, there'll need to be a bit of conversion work done for basic mounted troopers which I intend to use selected Artizan designs buffalo soldiers with the boots resculpted and probably the odd headswap. For other police (inspired by a photo of the police surrounding the Kelly gang) I'm going to use the special branch figures from the IHMN Scotland Yard company.

For Kelly hunters I'm looking to use some of the Northstar Boers from their Africa! range.

I think that the Boothill miniatures spare heads might be rife for some conversions too.

[bong-67]

Hi Ray,
I've also been considering ways to convert more troopers.  I already mentioned using Zulu War Natal mounted police.  Another idea might be to use 1st Corps Cape Mounted Rifles as they have trousers rather than boots and forage caps which could maybe be modified a bit.  Or perhaps Perry dismounted Confederate cavalry could do if the swords were removed and tunic skirts added with green stuff.
I've also found a figure in the small Crusader old West range in pack CCW001, Mad Scot, who is reminiscent of one of the characters in Quigley Down Under (well at least he has a Balmoral bonnet).
Putting temporary corrugated iron roofs on fisting old West buildings might do to give them enough of an Australian look without having to make and store new buildings and would be similar to the approach the Perries did for their Kimberley game.
All the best,
George.

[bong-67]

Hi,
Thinking about ideas for DMH Down Under I thought I vaguely remembered an old Australian police series from the 70s called Bony which was about an aboriginie detective.  A bit of googling revealed that I was right and the series does exist, although the main character is half aborigine and half white and maybe controversially he was played by a white actor in make-up (although I have no problem with that).
There is an episode available on you tube which is maybe interesting for DH Down Under. Its called the Kelly Gang and features modern robbers dressed in Kelly Gang armour holding up a bus!
It shows that the Kelly Gang figures could have many more uses than you might think as they could fit a VSF, Pulp, or 7TV setting.
All the best,
George.

[starkadder]

Bony was based on the Arthur Upfield novels and had the misfortune to appear at the same time as a steep rise in indigenous awareness and action. People were hypersensitive to to anything snowball (black on the outside, white on the inside)

This is a pity because Upfield lived worked and really liked indigenous culture. He was pretty respectful. He wrote around thirty Bony books. They are contemporary (50's and 60s) but could be reworked for scenarios.

I am confused by the DMH reference to Kelly's armour.

Am I to assume they are supposed to wander about the countryside in that rubbish? It was used once (28 June 1880 at Glenrowan). It was almost impossible to walk around in as it was so heavy (made from old farming ploughs and weighing around 100 lbs [45 kgs]), gave very little visibility and was stifling.

Most of the gang's career was free, easy and unarmoured. Two of the gang actually wore police uniforms at the Jerilderie incident. From memory, Dan spent more time dressed in a woman's skirt at the Glenrowan siege than ever he did in armour. Now, THAT would be amusing.

[starkadder]

the olden days a rather amusing redubbing of an old tv show.

The real Rush would be a great source of ideas, Scurv, if you could get it. Cracking theme as well.

[Poiter50]

The old ABC show Rush, starring John Waters who has gone on to greater things, was a great show, set among rebellious gold miners. Just wish it was available on DVD.

The real Rush would be a great source of ideas, Scurv, if you could get it. Cracking theme as well.

[Leigh Metford]

The main issues with the First Corps Cape Mounted Rifles figures, bong, are that their costume and equipment don't really match anything in any movie: waist-length jackets and double-barrelled carbines.

However, this does make them a very good conversion starting point for northern Division (NSW, and later QLD) NMP in the transition period (late 1860s to early 1870s) from the old NSW police to new QLD police uniform and DB carbine to Snider carbine, when some sections had received the new uniform but not the new weapon.

BTW, my attitude to DMH has been misrepresented by a certain poster to these boards, so I think it would be remiss of me not to set the record straight. Not having played it, obviously I can only go by online reports and magazine reviews, all of which indicate that it's a very good and enjoyable game; it just happens that personally I have no interest in playing games based exclusively, and very faithfully, on western movie conventions. I prefer something in the range Hollywood-light to fully historical. My issue with the game is that I think its designers are over-extending it by trying to incorporate movies that don't necessarily conform to the western blueprint.      

[axabrax]

Have you any interest in the game at all? Have you looked at any of the miniatures or the news posts or is this thread just an opportunity for you to discuss various Australian topics and to throw in an occasional criticism and to pontificate? You don't seem to know anything about the game or what its trying to do at all, which frankly doesn't make you look terribly informed regardless of how much you know about frontier Australia 

Bony was based on the Arthur Upfield novels and had the misfortune to appear at the same time as a steep rise in indigenous awareness and action. People were hypersensitive to to anything snowball (black on the outside, white on the inside)

This is a pity because Upfield lived worked and really liked indigenous culture. He was pretty respectful. He wrote around thirty Bony books. They are contemporary (50's and 60s) but could be reworked for scenarios.

I am confused by the DMH reference to Kelly's armour.

Am I to assume they are supposed to wander about the countryside in that rubbish? It was used once (28 June 1880 at Glenrowan). It was almost impossible to walk around in as it was so heavy (made from old farming ploughs and weighing around 100 lbs [45 kgs]), gave very little visibility and was stifling.

Most of the gang's career was free, easy and unarmoured. Two of the gang actually wore police uniforms at the Jerilderie incident. From memory, Dan spent more time dressed in a woman's skirt at the Glenrowan siege than ever he did in armour. Now, THAT would be amusing.

[Leigh Metford]

Can you read?

To reiterate the contents of the preceding post for your benefit:

1. No, I have absolutely no interest in playing this game. Perhaps the conditions of this site require that one has played, plays or has an intention to play a particular game before one is permitted to comment on it, but if so, I must have missed them.

2. Yes, I have seen the photos of the DMH figures; they're quite hard to miss if you've been viewing this thread. I've commented elsewhere on their excellent quality and accurate representation of their celluloid subjects.

3. Obviously I've read the entire thread; your point is?

4. If you'd read the posts in this thread with any degree of attentiveness you'd know that all of the points I've made have either been in response to questions, or have flowed naturally from preceding points.

5. Having read reviews of DMH that describe its structure I know that games are closely modeled on cinematic westerns to the point of being broken up into scenes. The fact that all the DMHDU figures represent actors should tell you something. Stuart from GEG is quite open about having the design goal of providing players with a highly cinematic game experience.

6. The fact that you entirely failed to absorb the content and intent of my preceding post before leaping to the attack makes you look somewhat foolish, and I have to wonder about the psychology behind someone suddenly become so rabidly and ridiculously defensive and personal about a game of toy soldiers.   
 

[von Lucky]

I'm sorry Lee, who are you replying to?

[Constable Bertrand]

Holster them pistols chaps.

Here, have a laugh instead.


 , the cow knows. 

Starkadder and Scurv, that Olden Days show was a giggle. 

I am confused by the DMH reference to Kelly's armour.
...
Am I to assume they are supposed to wander about the countryside in that rubbish? It was used once (28 June 1880 at Glenrowan). It was almost impossible to walk around in as it was so heavy (made from old farming ploughs and weighing around 100 lbs [45 kgs]), gave very little visibility and was stifling.

I was also quite surprised this release has the whole gang in armour. To be honest, id probably just prefer to buy one "ned kelly" figure, and use generic cowboys for the rest of the gang. The DMH Kelly Gang are modeled quite nicely though, I was considering doing some GS conversions, but these guys are better than anything I could do at this stage.
Alas it's packaged in one box. :/
We could always buy one box and split between a few members

Cheers
Matt

[bong-67]

Hi,
With regard to the Kelly gang figures, I don't think they're actually meant to represent the real Kelly gang if only Ned wore the armour and then only once.  what they are is an attempt by Great Escape games to offer a set of figures which all look distinctive and from a certain point of view, cool.  From my point of view they are the least useful figures in the Down Under release for using in actual bush ranger games but as I mentioned previously they could do for VSF or Pulp gaming which lends them a certain versatility.   At last year's Falkirk wargames show (Carronade) Dave Thomas was doing three for two deals on Dead Man's Hand boxed sets so if the same deal is on offer this year and the Down Under sets are in it I'll get all three sets.
Thanks to Leigh for his information about the suitability of the 1st Corps Cape Mounted Rifles for police conversions.  I think I might have to look at something else.  I'm actually hoping that when I see the Down Under book all of the scenarios can be done with the figures in the set but if I need more I need to have options.  One is to find compatible figures which would work with minor conversion, e.g. of headgear, and I now think that the Foundry Victorian police with guns could be the best basis for these.  The other is to not buy the Dead Man's Hand police set but convert figures to suit from some other source e.g. Natal Mounted Police or Zulu War British mounted infantry.  That option would let me build a force as big as I want and also give me the option to do mounted troopers to match those on foot.
From what I can gather from this thread and similar ones on TMP, the various Australian Police forces were more like paramilitaries so they had very well defined uniforms and equipment and dress regulations would be likely to be enforced in the field.  Is this correct?
Also, I think I and many others could do with some information on police firearms and equipment.  I'm guessing that firearms would follow contemporary British army practice e.g. Snider carbines in the 1860's and Martini-Henrys in the 1870's and whatever the current service revolver was.  However, were other firearms like shotguns ever issued?
Whilst on the subject of guns, what did civilians and bush rangers use in the 1860s to 1870s?  Were British firearms more common and were American guns like Winchester repeaters or Sharps carbines used in Australia?
Finally, does anyone have any reference for the headgear Australian police wore in the 1860s or 70s?  I've heard it described as a forage cap with a forward sloping crown so it sounds a lot like a kepi to me.  I'm thinking ACW forage caps might do but would they and if not what would be a better match?
All the best,
George.

[Ray Earle]

First of all, take your argument outside please gents before you all get an interesting discussion locked.

Some of us are trying to have a sensible thread about pushing little tin men around a table.

I'm with bong-67 though, have any of you a guide to Australian police of the 1860's-80's era? I've seen photos of mounted police in boots just under the knee, white trousers and a five button jacket, hence my thoughts on modifying some US cavalry figures, but would they wear the forage cap or the natty little helmet?

I think from the photos the forage cap is rounder than the US version, sort of like a pill box cap, just a squashed one.

Thanks,

[Leigh Metford]

Looks like I had a bit of a mindslip earlier, and Axabrax's riposte was actually directed at Starkadder. Coming straight after my post I assumed...  and somehow missed the quote from Starkadder's post. So, apologies to Axabrax; I thought the apparent attack was a bit odd coming out of nowhere like that, and that I must be having my first experience of 'fanboyism'.

Anyway, I'd happily pass my misdirected return volley onto Starkers, but he'd have to do a complete rewrite, so if they want to continue the stoush he might be better off starting from scratch.

Before I leave you to your DMHing gentlemen, allow me to once again recommend www.uniformotw.com for plates of police uniforms from the period of interest. Now, back to my own corner...