Musicians uniforms of the Numancia Dragoons and Reyna Cavalry questions

[Calimero]

Hello all,

I was wondering if anyone has infos on the musicians' uniforms of the Numancia Dragoons and Reyna Cavalry units for the Napoleonic war. I’ve found a source stating that "reversed colors" where "possibly worn" but nothing more serious or even pictures showing their uniforms.

Thanks for the help!
Cheers!

[Plutarch64]

Well, for what it is worth...

Numancia first:



And the Heavies...



More here:

http://www.tinmountain.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Napoleonic%20Spanish%2028mm

[Plutarch64]

Quick apologies - I have just realised that the dragoons were actually the Villavicosia dragoons and the heavies are the Calatrava.

I managed to confuse them with the Numancia and Reyna regiments which I had earlier completed in 15mm and managed to confuse myself along the way.

Not that this will necessarily bother anyone but myself, of course!

[Calimero]

Thanks. I did find these two pictures in my previous research. Since the Dragoon musician is wearing a reversed color scheme, I presume it will be OK if I paint it this way…

Still not convinced by the Heavy musician wearing the same uniform as the troopers though…

I would like to get this right because I’m still not sure if I will keep these two cavalry unit for myself or try to sell them (I’m currently painting Numancia Dragoons and Reyna Heavies, 12 figures units using Front Rank 28mm).

[gringo]

Calimero

based on my research red was the predominant colour
for trumpters for many early Spanish regiments astride
a white or grey horse......will recheck my notes and revert

best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com

[Plutarch64]

I went back through my usual sources (Nafziger, the rather good Chartrand Ospreys and an old painting guide I also used) but can't now see where I picked up the notion that the dragoons were reversed, but the heavy cavalry weren't.

The one definitive paragraph I have just found is on the Peter Bunde Plate 111 for the regiment Numancia itself where he states that "The trumpeters had red coats and trousers with yellow facings". In a nutshell, from the illustration he provides, everything that is black or yellow on the trooper is red on the trumpeter (collar, coat, cuffs, shabraque), while the red turnbacks are yellow for the trumpeter.

On the face of it this looks like it is reversed, which for the most part it is until you take into account the fact that the facings for the regiment were obviously black.

With that in mind I think Gringo is most likely correct especially if one takes into consideration that red was the general colour for musicians in the Spanish army, apart from the line infantry drummers who wore the royal livery from memory.

This I can vaguely recall is why I did those piper figures one receives in the Front Rank infantry battalion packs in red and all the drummers in blue. Anyway, I'm not going to change my dragoon trumpeter, but will probably wake up at 2:00am tomorrow morning wondering where I got the idea in the first place.

I think this is the thing I enjoy most about the Spanish army - colourful, but definitely an enigma.

[Calimero]

Yes, it can really become quite confusing when looking for specific uniform colors for a given period… I’m kind of lost too with the sources I’ve found. I did see a (quite) small color plate of a Dragoon Musician in red uniform and I must admit it look quite nice.

Now for the Heavies, I’m still not sure I like the idea that the same uniform as the rest of the troop were used… That may be an acute case of "what I think will look good on a figure" vs "historical accuracy"

[cdr]

http://losejercitosdelrey.es/1789-regimiento-de-dragones-de-numancia/

this gives a slightly early version for musicians in the Numancia dragones

Carl

[Plutarch64]

Here is one for the Infante heavies or line, Calimero, which would appear to again confirm Gringo's earlier assertion that musicians are in red:

[Plutarch64]

Bugger.

[Calimero]

Bugger.

Tell me about it... I now have to repaint red over a black coat!

[Alfil]

Since 1803 the trumpets wear the same uniform for each class of regiment (line, hussars, dragons).
You can see this in
http://losejercitosdelrey.es/reglamento-de-caballeria-de-1803/
You have both the description of the uniform (sorry, in Spanish) as graphical representations of the trumpets.
Best wishes

[Plutarch64]

What a good link Alfil - I have bookmarked it for future use.

From the text and the illustrations it would appear that the line trumpeters were definitely in red.

Nothing on the dragoons, probably because these regulations are for 1803 which is the year they were abolished, to then be reinstated in 1805.

The illustrations also show red for the chasseurs, but this almost appears to be more a reversal of the regimental facings, unless that is a coincidence. Given that some of the disbanded dragoons were transformed into chasseur (and hussar) regiments, and then transformed back in 1805, I wonder if the trumpeters for the dragoons were actually reversed. I am sure I read dragoon trumpeters were reversed somewhere, but of course can't now remember it so have to doubt myself there as well.

Anyway, I'm leaving mine as is and will just tell anyone who cares that my line trumpeter has borrowed a jacket from somewhere. A fascinating link, all the same.

[Alfil]

You are right, Plutarch64. I wrote dragons and not chasseurs. Effectively, dragoons were abolished in 1803 and restored in 1805. I'm sorry.

Before 1800, the drums of all regiments of infantry, dragoons and artillery had the same uniform: blue with red facings and royal chevron.
In 1800 regulation said that the trumpets of the dragoon regiments had red jackets.
http://losejercitosdelrey.es/1800-los-regimientos-de-dragones/
Probably the regulation didn't apply.
Before 1803, for trumpets of line cavalry, some authors assume the hypothesis that the jacket were of facings color.
Really, we don't know. Regulation is not known.
In 1803 the trumpets of all regiments had red jacket or red dolman.
After 1805 there is nothing written. Everything is possible but more likely some things than other.

Congratulations, the miniatures are beautiful

[Plutarch64]

Your link is amongst the best I have r read Alfil, not just on Spanish cavalry in particular, but for Napoleonics in general. Thanks for sharing.