Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Hobgoblin]

They certainly have the "short legs and long arms" and "big heads with no necks" things going for them which I personally like (though the leg/arm thing doesn't seem to be canon), and I agree that they tick nearly all the boxes.

Long arms are definitely "canonical" (in the descriptions of Grishnakh, his troops, Shagrat and the Isengarders at Helm's Deep). And Grishnakh and his followers have "crooked legs".

[Pijlie]

This a fascinating read for a Tolkien nerd like me. Keep it up 😊

[Hobgoblin]

It might not be strictly in line with the info gleaned from Tolkien's writing*, but again, as per Polynikes'(?) illustration in an older topic: less gorillaform, more chimpform. With some big, gnarly monkeys in the mix too. When I see Alan Lee's take on the tracker orc, I see something not a million miles from a baboon or a drill. With requisite anthropomorphism.

For clothing and equipment, I'd like to stick to the general 'dark ages' europe theme that seems to be associated with middle-earth. Though that still encompasses a wide range, from what I know.

* Though given some of the descriptions, posted by Hobgoblin, it's not too different. Hunched, bandy-legged stances; flat noses; yellow fangs; wide mouths; hairy arms...

I have to admit, even with the qualifiers of "degraded and repulsive versions" and "to Europeans", I find going the ape & monkey route a little less troubling than making uglified mongolians.[/

One interesting point re: apes is that both Ugluk and Grishnakh use "ape" as an insult for each other ("the other lot, the apes of Lugubrz"; "Ape!"). And, at Helm's Deep, the Uruk-hai are described as leaping up "like the apes of the South", IIRC.

On the "degraded and repulsive" Mongolians, I agree that it sits uncomfortably with contemporary sensibilities. BUT no one seems to find anything wrong with it when miniature-makers actually put it into practice:

[Hobgoblin]

A couple of things I have done:

First shows a Silmarillion scene using Redbox Games Elves and GW Mordor Orcs(plastics).

   

   
      Second is a trio of Asgard Orcs,lovely!
   
     

Sublime paint jobs - and great figures! Just as the creation of Orcs was Morgoth's worst deed, so it was Jez Goodwin's greatest ...

I think those are about as "canonical" as orcish miniatures have ever got. It's interesting how like the (very text-faithful) Alan Lee painting that Vermis linked to above the swordsman on the left is.

[Steam Flunky]

A couple of things I have done:

First shows a Silmarillion scene using Redbox Games Elves and GW Mordor Orcs(plastics).

  

Very nice Blackwolf!!

I've also been a gamer for as long, and I have to say I've still never found a range of orcs/ goblins that fits my mental image of Tolkien's evil race. Considering I've been in the figure industry for 28 years, it's a bit pathetic of me to have not done them myself. Maybe I should start a vanity project.

I have noticed that over the past few years Orcs are starting to have a life of their own in mainstream culture, and it's the 'green gorilla' variety rather than Tolkiens, I'm thinking World of Warcraft in particular. Everytime I see them, I just keep thinking 'The biggest orcs are just man sized!'

Maybe it is a good time make a few "real" Tolkien style orcs. With GW going seriously OTT with their fantasy races for AoS, there will be no realistic orcs to expect there (if there ever was) and most of the other companys make orcs more similiar to GW than Tolkien.
Also i get the feeling that in the hobby there is a move away from large armies at the moment and a lot more skirmish is played (SAGA, Lion/Dragon Rampant, Song of blades....) which means gamers are working on a variety of smaller projects instead of 1 or 2 big ones. This means they might buy a handfull of nice orcs where a few years ago they would have probably said "no! dont start another army".

[Blackwolf]

Thanks fellas

Should have said in my post above;  these are examples of what can be done to get a canonical feel with ones Orcs(and Elves).

[nicknorthstar]

I always envisaged Orcs as 'ape-like', meaning Chimps rather than Gorillas. It's the long arms and bandy leg descriptions, plus the Prof's line 'like apes of the south' line at Helm's Deep that did it for me. The insults (calling each other apes) I didn't read too much into, they also call each other maggots LOL.

The first figures I ever bought (1981) were the Ral Partha goblins, now Thunderbolt Mountain, because I thought they were 'Lord of the Rings' figures, I described them as much. (I hadn't heard of D&D at this point). Those goblins still remain the closest to my idea of Tolkiens Orcs out there, especially the Wolf Riders, but it's their nakedness (lack of both clothes and hair) that means they don't fit the bill.

I did once approach Mr Meier with the idea of doing some Tolkien-esque figures, I just got a 'get lost, spotty' answer. Ho Hum.

(get lost spotty is British humour, I apologise to my American friends if it seems an odd thing to say)

[nicknorthstar]

I'd just like to say, I'm not against the 'other' Orcs. I don't like modern GW figures, but I do still have a green skinned Orc and Goblin 1980's GW army, with the Bad Moon and Sun type banners etc, and I love them. But they have nothing to do with my Tolkien interest.

[Captain Blood]

When I read your opening post, I just thought, 'yeah so, we know this already'. As the thread went on, I realised 'no, its me, it's because I've been obsessed with Tolkien for 35 years'.

I've also been a gamer for as long, and I have to say I've still never found a range of orcs/ goblins that fits my mental image of Tolkien's evil race. Considering I've been in the figure industry for 28 years, it's a bit pathetic of me to have not done them myself. Maybe I should start a vanity project.

Do it Nick! (I don't think it would be a vanity project. Judging by the amount of interest in this thread, I think there would be a market for 'true to Tolkien' orcs).
Worth dipping a toe in the water?

Of course it's impossible to please everybody, because Tolkien gives so little actual description of arms and armour. He wasn't really interested in the detail - unless it was the languages. He was creating an epic, poetic saga. The descriptions of swords, helmets, shields etc are infuriatingly vague and generic.
But for me, those old Minifigs orcs are the closest to the simple equipment Tolkien describes: rudimentary conical helmets or iron caps, mail shirts, swords, spears, bows and shields.

The entire ornate, gothic, extravagant depiction of sub-Tolkien armour and weapons, with all their protrusions, and fancy-schmanzy items of ludicrously baroque plate armour, are entirely the invention of Alan Lee, John Howe, and the pursuing host of Tolkien illustrators and game designers. There is, to the best of my recollection, nothing in The Hobbit or The Lord of The Rings, which justifies any of that overblown, flamboyant  nonsense. Tolkien is essentially describing a low-tech, late-Dark Age, early Medieval culture.

The best depiction of Tolkien peoples in miniature that I think I've seen, were the Hasslefree dwarves. I also thought the Vendel goblins had a lot going for them. Essentially the look of both these sets of figures is dead simple, and based on historical arms and armour - not ridiculously fantastical concoctions.

In terms of the physical appearance of orcs, there are a few more clues. As mentioned - definite references to long arms, bandy legs, and swart faces. But I've always seen those as slightly misshapen, ugly men. Not green-skinned munchkins look like a cross between monkeys and pandas 

This remains just about my favourite miniatures depiction of Tolkien's world anywhere, ever, Guy 
Still brilliant.
I hope you'll do some more one day.

[Rhoderic]

It seems to me that this thread is finally bursting a dam that's been wanting to be burst for a long time. The desire for new "proper Tolkien" orcs is clearly there (especially in the face of a rising tide of orc and goblin miniatures that are decidedly "alternative" in appearance), it just hasn't been talked about as much as it should have.

I, too, would be all over a range of skirmish-friendly Tolkien orcs in a "North Star-esque" sculpting style, similar in anatomy to the Thunderbolt Mountain goblins, just with more hair, more clothes and a greater distinction between uruks and snaga, but maybe (unless it makes the range less "marketable") a less extreme, less "regiment-oriented" division of dedicated troop types (heavy melee infantry and ultra-light archers aren't very skirmish-friendly). Perhaps also another millimeter or two of height for uruks so they'll stand a bit taller than most 28mm scale hobbit/halfling figures (which generally seem to measure about 19-20 mm to the eyes).

Downplaying the "Mongolian" features of the face would, I think, be a worthy sacrifice of accuracy for a good reason. The eyes need not be so "slant", and the "flat noses" can look more like flattened versions of European noses (fleshier, with more pronounced bridges) than like the typical East Asian nasal form. The Gorgoroth fighting orc in the excellent Alan Lee illustration linked to by Vermis is a fairly good example of what I mean. The nose could be flatter than that, but having a similarly pronounced bridge. For that matter, the Thunderbolt Mountain goblins have faces that fit Tolkien's description well enough, but don't look much like any human racial stereotype.

Also i get the feeling that in the hobby there is a move away from large armies at the moment and a lot more skirmish is played (SAGA, Lion/Dragon Rampant, Song of blades....) which means gamers are working on a variety of smaller projects instead of 1 or 2 big ones. This means they might buy a handfull of nice orcs where a few years ago they would have probably said "no! dont start another army".

I think this is very true. There was a time when I'd have balked at the idea of collecting several different styles of orcs and goblins (or elves, dwarves or "fantasy aesthetic" humans for that matter) as separate projects, but no more. It's not as if I'm collecting an army's worth of any of them anymore.

[nicknorthstar]

I agree with you in regards to over-blown armour.

Alan Lee and John Howe are very much two of my favourite artists, but Mr Howes use of plate armour in Middle-Earth always looked good but was wrong. So when he became the concept artist for PJ's films, it meant the Orcs GW made were not quite what I wanted. I liked the little Moria Goblins the most, and I was nearly tempted to go with them, painted a few up.

Just as an aside, have you seen the pictures of Pauline Baines? She was a friend of the Profs, and had direct contact with him in regards to the imagery of the characters of Middle-Earth. In Bilbos Last Song there are some Goblins illustrated.
https://itunes.apple.com/au/book/bilbos-last-song/id563892510?mt=11

Not saying they are perfect, but their faces, helmet shape and use of scale armour are something figure designers can take on board.

[Rhoderic]

I liked the little Moria Goblins the most, and I was nearly tempted to go with them, painted a few up.

IMO, the Moria goblins (if viewed from an "orthodox Tolkienist" POV) still suffer from a tendency in the Hollywood film industry to overthink and overdesign everything. With the Moria goblins they were thinking: "They live in the darkness, right? So let's give them extra big eyes like tarsiers, because they'll have evolved to see better in the dark. The audience will love that!". Now, I can see valid reasons for Hollywood's priorities being what they are, but... it still kind of breaks the concept of Tolkien's orcs/goblins, doesn't it? They don't evolve "zoomorphically" for every specific environment. I'm sure that given a chance, Jackson would also have populated Middle Earth with wetland-dwelling goblins with gills and arctic-dwelling ones covered in fur.

Oh, I just had a terrible premonition of the inevitable Silmarillion films ten years from now, wherein Fingolfin's elves will be leaping wuxia-style from ice block to ice block as they fight furry goblins on Helcaraxë

[Vermis]

On the "degraded and repulsive" Mongolians, I agree that it sits uncomfortably with contemporary sensibilities. BUT no one seems to find anything wrong with it when miniature-makers actually put it into practice:

I think the colour scheme mollifies it some. Nice job on that. And the vaguely eastern paraphernalia doesn't matter too much. (Old GW hobgoblins, Ogre Kingdoms etc.) But there's a little, minor niggle in the back of my head that a drive to produce Tolkien-faithful orcs (slant-eyed, wide-mouthed, big fangs, repulsive mongol types... I guess the sallow skin is up to the painter) with modern mini sculpting, could steer a little close to something like WWII propaganda of the Japanese.
Not that I think anyone would consciously aim for that! But maybe there's such a thing as too faithful.

Sublime paint jobs - and great figures! Just as the creation of Orcs was Morgoth's worst deed, so it was Jez Goodwin's greatest ...

I think those are about as "canonical" as orcish miniatures have ever got. It's interesting how like the (very text-faithful) Alan Lee painting that Vermis linked to above the swordsman on the left is.

True, all that.

Also i get the feeling that in the hobby there is a move away from large armies at the moment and a lot more skirmish is played (SAGA, Lion/Dragon Rampant, Song of blades....)

I'd still like big armies, but... maybe in 10-15mm.

The first figures I ever bought (1981) were the Ral Partha goblins, now Thunderbolt Mountain, because I thought they were 'Lord of the Rings' figures, I described them as much. (I hadn't heard of D&D at this point). Those goblins still remain the closest to my idea of Tolkiens Orcs out there...
I did once approach Mr Meier with the idea of doing some Tolkien-esque figures, I just got a 'get lost, spotty' answer. Ho Hum.

Ouch.  

I think I mentioned these in passing, somewhere, but haven't linked to them yet. A guy trying to fill in the gaps of Tom Meier's various orcs and goblins ranges.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/637455.page

He was an interesting one, claiming that there was a good chance he'd pick up the LotR license when GW were sure to drop it soon. (We know how that went) I've no idea if he got the sculpts finished and printed, or not. I'll have to find out. I don't think the digital sculpting, including the reposed-dollies look, helped them much in this case, anyway.

The entire ornate, gothic, extravagant depiction of sub-Tolkien armour and weapons, with all their protrusions, and fancy-schmanzy items of ludicrously baroque plate armour, are entirely the invention of Alan Lee, John Howe, and the pursuing host of Tolkien illustrators and game designers. There is, to the best of my recollection, nothing in The Hobbit or The Lord of The Rings, which justifies any of that overblown, flamboyant  nonsense. Tolkien is essentially describing a low-tech, late-Dark Age, early Medieval culture.

The best depiction of Tolkien peoples in miniature that I think I've seen, were the Hasslefree dwarves. I also thought the Vendel goblins had a lot going for them. Essentially the look of both these sets of figures is dead simple, and based on historical arms and armour - not ridiculously fantastical concoctions.

I really like John Howe, I have three of his books here, but I have to agree. It's not just Tolkien-faithful orcs that are lacking, but sensible, relatively realistic armour in fantasy. Especially since the Empire and Bretonnia went down in flames.

Hasslefree dwarfs are pretty great, for the reasons you mention. (Also because Kev White is very good at what he does) I sometimes wish the unit-fillers were more nordic than norman, but beggars, choosers.

Not green-skinned munchkins look like a cross between monkeys and pandas  

Pandas?!?

The Gorgoroth fighting orc in the excellent Alan Lee illustration linked to by Vermis is a fairly good example of what I mean.

I'm amused the way Alan Lee makes them look like degraded and repulsive europeans. To my eyes!

Just as an aside, have you seen the pictures of Pauline Baines? She was a friend of the Profs, and had direct contact with him in regards to the imagery of the characters of Middle-Earth. In Bilbos Last Song there are some Goblins illustrated.
https://itunes.apple.com/au/book/bilbos-last-song/id563892510?mt=11

Not saying they are perfect, but their faces, helmet shape and use of scale armour are something figure designers can take on board.

I didn't know about that. Nice.

IMO, the Moria goblins (if viewed from an "orthodox Tolkienist" POV) still suffer from a tendency in the Hollywood film industry to overthink and overdesign everything.

Mm. I'm also a bit turned off by the spiky shields, that seem roughly hammered from one big piece of scrap metal. If the minis of those had good ol' round shield replacements, it'd be a huge improvement in itself.

Oh, I just had a terrible premonition of the inevitable Silmarillion films ten years from now, wherein Fingolfin's elves will be leaping wuxia-style from ice block to ice block as they fight furry goblins on Helcaraxë

Goodnight, everyone.

[jamesmanto]

Good discussion.
The gamification in the OP is why I've avoided middle Earth gaming, even though I'm a massive Tolkien fan.
I just can't stand all the D&D and WFB tropes being brought to the table by friends who just don't get it. Or my friends donating horrid old (or newer GW) figures to me...
Perhaps with Lion Rampant and Dragon Rampant I could manage something on my own?

[Blackwolf]

Thanks Richard

To my mind what is missing in much of the figure ranges and the films is a lack of mythicism; especially in the films(I walked out),lousy casting,appalling dialogue ("the men are quiet and the horses are restless" for example) and the subversion of major characters rolls.
  I am aware that studios have to make money so bear with me; it is a shame that Peter Jackson seemed to play to the common denominator,a fault common these days,why not try to raise that denominator to a higher level,rather than lower it? This is of course rhetoric on my part I hope that the Silmarillion is never made into film,I don't believe anyone could do it justice...And too many Elves,Elves in films had a very rough trot...Too much makeup does not make you look ageless...
Back to Hobgoblin's most excellent topic; perhaps if figure designers looked at Tolkien's world in a more serious way,less exaggeration and more historic reference points,whilst still retaining that 'mythic' feel? Subtlety I feel is the key...
Guy