Constructs Good Bad...taken for Granite???

[Timeshadow]

Is there a reason constructs should be more useful than undead or animal companions?



I would argue that if you wanted to make them more usefull, create scenerios where they are usefull or let their cool factor be part of why you take them. Frostgrave is brilliant because there are so few elements that are overpowered.

Undead aka Zombies are super good, They don't take a soldier slot, and you can re summon them after they leave with treasure or are killed and the diff is super easy they are a go to spell right up there with Leap and Heal. Not comparable to regular minions as they don't take a slot they are free extras. Campaign spell lets you have a skeleton but it's a toss up whether it's better or not.

Animal companion gives you a free 100gc equivalent Bear that is mobile cover and a +4 fight with a good Will save. It also gives options for other ok animals as well though it does take a soldier slot it's free and you can use it as a stopgap for lean times without loosing much power. Comparable and better than many soldiers and a great stopgap. Easy to cast as well.

Summon demon Gives a powerful and disposable minion that can carry treasure and doesn't count toward your soldiers, add to this demon in a bottle for even more fun. Drawback is that it's control can be dispelled and there is a chance if summoned in game that you could roll a 1 and have it attacking you. Not comparable to regular minions as per Raise Zombie.

Create Construct Give you a weaker slower minion that can never shoot and has a weaker fight than any other equivalent summoned creature. With 550gc of campaign specific upgrades they are on par with regular minions (without magic item) but only just. An 80-100gc minion with 450gc worth of magic item will 9 times out of 10 be much better than a construct. They are free so can be used as a stop-gap for lean times but even a 20gc thief/thug is most times going to be a better investment.

[ImhotepMagi]

Is there a reason constructs should be more useful than undead or animal companions?



I would argue that if you wanted to make them more usefull, create scenerios where they are usefull or let their cool factor be part of why you take them. Frostgrave is brilliant because there are so few elements that are overpowered.

No there isnt. I would argue that undead should get some of the same immunities and have options for better undead to be raised.  I just haven't thought about undead as much as constructs.

I also don't think animal companions should count toward warband limit but limit one per warband. However snow leopards and bears are pretty awesome. Wolves could use some love comparatively. Once again, haven't given it much thought.

Summon demon is fine as is. Demons are pretty great on their own and take no slots.

It's more about providing value for a spell slot competing with awesome buffs and face blasters.

[Darkson71]

Undead aka Zombies are super good, They don't take a soldier slot, and you can re summon them after they leave with treasure

I thought Joe had said you couldn't raise another zombie if it left with treasure, as it was still under your control till the post-game?

[Timeshadow]

I thought Joe had said you couldn't raise another zombie if it left with treasure, as it was still under your control till the post-game?

Not that I am aware of but if that's the case it takes away a big bonus for zombies and I'm guessing for summon demon as well.

[theironsoldier]

Constructs captured my imagination, but I too can't think of a good reason to use them.

I would like a little rules-supplement to allow some more sandbox options with these. Scrap the large-medium-small system and make some other rules about construction.

Maybe a simple points allocation system? points can be spent on movement, fight, and health? Bigger has more points, but normal downside of "large".

[Timeshadow]

Constructs captured my imagination, but I too can't think of a good reason to use them.

I would like a little rules-supplement to allow some more sandbox options with these. Scrap the large-medium-small system and make some other rules about construction.

Maybe a simple points allocation system? points can be spent on movement, fight, and health? Bigger has more points, but normal downside of "large".

As much as this might be cool it would complicate things unnecessarily and in frostgrave I have come to respect it's simplicity. I think just a couple of tweeks to existing magic items and spells is all they need. According to the poll numbers noone thinks they are over powered or useless which speeks to them being nearly perfect the way they are over half think that they could use a few tweeks to make them a touch better and we have seen a good number of options to do just that. I'd like to see expansions for each school of magic say giving them all 4 additional "advanced" spells that you can only get from treasures (why are we in frostgrave except to recover lost magic right) and within those spells should be at least two spells to make constructs better.

[Paboook]

The concept of constructs is great, but they suffer from several cons: 1) taking a soldier slot, 2) medium and large constructs have litle bit meh stats when compared to demons, particularly the movement, 3) out of game only.

I love the fact Frostgrave rules are simple, and would like to change the constructs in the same spirit. What about constructs not taking a soldier slot (with a maximum of one per warband)? They are after all machines and lack the need for food etc. I would say this could make them much more useful without any complications. What is your opinion about such house rule?

[Timeshadow]

I would be fine with that and it would take care of most issues with them but in turn would give people another set of boots on the floor which I think would be bad. I honestly think Warbands are the perfect size right now and any more additions would begin to bog down the game. I might suggest having them take the slot but still being one per warband (like animal companions) with a small stat-line boost or some additional options/skills or resistances to make up for it.

[almic85]

I am not sitting at home with my rulebook but from my side I see the following issued with constructs (which can be mostly resolved with the Golem Campaign supplement).
1/ golems just can't get better from baseline stats. Almost every other soldier can get encahnt weapon and enchant armour for plus stats. Personally I don't see any issue with constructs (or summoned zombies, demons or animals for that matter for balance) getting enchant wepaon or enchant armour cast on them. Somehow someone is telling me that an enchant weapon can be cast on a sword, axe, arrow or club, but can't be cast on a golems inanimate rock hand? For that matter how hard is it to strap a set of spikes to summoned animal or zombie?
2/ (I may be wrong on this) From memory it is an out of game spell not an in game spell. This severely weakens the spell for a soldier that is not equivalent to any of the other summon soldier type spells. If a necromancer can magically make a zombie rise from the ground and a witch can summon a vicious animal frmo nowhere, then an enchanter can cobble together a golem from rocks he finds in the ruins. I have left summon demon out of this one becuase they actually appear from nowhere, but the same argument could be made that they need prep to summon.
3/ for the large constructs (and all other large creatures) there needs to be some advantage to being large. I like the suggestion that they do not halve movement when carrying treasure. MAybe as an alternative they should modify damage in the same way as double handed weapons and add +2 to damage. After all larger than a human and one hand for them would/could eqaul 2 hands for a human.

[Jockjay]

I agree with the 'large needs a bonus' to balance it out. Large currently means slow and easy to hit...But no advantages, no balance. If he could hit hard, then there is a trade off. I love the idea of large things not halving movement with treasure. Perhaps not applying the 'wounded' status too, to represent robustness? Yes it may get damaged, but it doesn't feel pain and is tougher than a zombie?

I think at least the treasure rule will become a house rule here.

[theironsoldier]

I agree that simplicity is the priority.

Also, changing movement rules would be nice, but not enough to make medium and large worthwhile.

Large needs a bonus across the game. There is nothing good about being big.

[rufus sparkfire]

I also like the 'not slowed by treasure if large' idea!

[Timeshadow]

A few Ideas to improve constructs but not overpower

1: Large as discussed prev needs some benefit so I'd suggest giving no encumbrance penalty wile carrying treasure ie no -1 Fight and full movement.

2: As magically animated servants I think constructs should benefit from Enchant weapon and enchant armor spells and the "Book of the construct" should allow them to be embedded. (Both of them at the same time even)

3: All the items from the hunt for the golem mini campaine should be available to buy if not to begin with then right after the Golem campaigne is run.

Even with all these bonuses I very much doute that many ppl would switch more than one or two soldiers for constructs which I think is just perfect for balance.

[joechuck]

I just wish they were considered armed.

[Bishop Cockthrottle]

I just wish they were considered armed.

I have never thought of them as weaponless! Blimey that would downgrade them...