A cautious dip into medieval madness? (Update April 10)

[Berg]

Hello,

A short background; Last summer i supported the nickstarter for frostgrave and while i waited for it to arrive i bought some historical plastic kits, among them was a box of Perry wotr-miniatures.

I have played a lot of frostgrave and painted loads of fantasy miniatures but for the last few months i have mostly built and painted Perry miniatures (close to 200 of them at the moment). I had no plan or thought when i started but i soon found a blog where someone (silverwhistle) had created fantastic scenes with these miniatures and i was sold.

I have lurked here for awhile and i know that this forum is packed with talent and knowledge so i was hoping i could get some help and at the same time push myself a little.

My biggest problems at the moment are

1) rules... i am torn between lion rampant and sharpe practice bur are there other rulesets for large skirmish actions?

2) I need to find a satisfactory setting for my miniatures, at the moment they are painted in whatever i wanted to paint with no real historical grounding.

3) Flags! This is connected with 2. I am toying with the idea of making up a historical fantasy setting based in ... Italy...or England.. or Scandinavia? Most of my miniatures are billmen and longbows and it might be difficult to pass them off as condottieri. Anyone else done something like this?

I also need to make and/or buy some terrain.

The point of this thread is to help me focus on this project and perhaps make me improve my hobby skills.
All comments are welcome!

I need to (learn to) take some decent pictures in the near future.



http://figurspel.blogspot.se/2016/02/medieval-madness.html


/Berg

[Miantanomo]

They look good! Lion Rampant is a favorite of mine. That is the perfect size for me and Perry's go with Lion Rampant like peanut butter and jelly.

If you don't think you can pass them off as condottieri, you can probably pass them off as plain old mercenaries. As mercenaries, any medieval setting will work!

[Arlequín]

I think you've done a great job on those, well done!  

For my money Lion Rampant is ideal for first steps (or permanently) and as your collection grows you can always go for Sharp Practice at a later date (plus 2nd Edition is forthcoming before long, so not the best time to buy them).

The bill was particularly 'English' but most of the weapons in the Perry boxes lean towards more European styles that are similar, so not that much of an issue. Longbows were common all over Northern Europe, so no limits there either.

A lot of people have Wars of the Roses forces and simply make up their own forces and narrative within the bigger picture. Others go for historic participants based on the relatively little we know, but still play imaginary battles.

There are obviously other settings and Germany of the time was rife with petty conflicts, which is why I guess GW based 'The Empire' on it. Reference material can be hard to come by in English and often not much more is available in other languages.

An alternative is to use the Game of Thrones setting (or something like it), which is as near historical as fantasy gets... and there's some utility in combining that with your Frostgrave stuff.

I've always fancied Joe Abercrombie's 'First Law' setting, part of which features an island with a condottieri-style setting, but military styles elsewhere seem to be a fusion of Pride and Prejudice meets Shakespeare's Henry IV, VI and Mac Beth, with no gunpowder.

This is LAF, so whatever dark desires you harbour, someone will egg you on.  

[dragonwagon]

Kind of the same dilemma here.  I've bought a few boxes of Perry Mercenaries to add pike men to my GW Empire troops but with the collapse of Warhammer fantasy I've been stuck with a partial Germanesque part English, Italian, Spanish Army if I play them historical.  So I'm trying to figure out how to use these figures in a setting for games.  I think I may just buy more Perry and do a late middle ages, early Renaissance  and use my Empire troops in skirmish games like Frostgrave!  So if you come up with a good solution ;  holler!!

[Captain Blood]

Nice work on those figures, Berg 

If you are pondering what to do with your Perry plastics, may I shamelessly pimp my Wars of the Roses thread: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.0
A historical, Wars of The Roses setting, but largely featuring a set of more-or-less invented noble families engaged in some local blood-letting.

And my Game of Thrones thread: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=62778.0
By kit-bashing the Perry medievals with a few other bits and pieces, you can open up a whole world of pseudo-medieval fantasy...

I agree with Jim: Joe Abercrombie's 'First Law' setting would also be great - you could mix Perry medievals and Perry Napoleonics, which is appears to be what is portrayed - at least in terms of culture and wardrobe, although there is no battlefield gunpowder technology.

[Arlequín]

I've bought a few boxes of Perry Mercenaries to add pike men to my GW Empire troops but with the collapse of Warhammer fantasy...

If fantasy is more your thing than historicals, there's Dragon Rampant from Osprey, which is the fantasy version of Lion Rampant, or if you are more a 'big battle' guy, Mantic's Kings of War is very much in the Warhammer mould, to the point they have lists for most of the armies from Warhammer (for free). They have their own world background and lists too, but I gather the idea was draw in 'Ex-whammers'.

The core rules are also free if you want to try before you buy and they and the lists are here: http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html

... I don't work for Mantic btw.  

I agree with Jim: Joe Abercrombie's 'First Law' setting would also be great - you could mix Perry medievals and Perry Napoleonics, which is appears to be what is portrayed - at least in terms of culture and wardrobe, although there is no battlefield gunpowder technology.

I had a view of the web comic a while back and it totally destroyed my mental image, which was pretty much the same as yours... Reading between the images (and there weren't any of actual troops) it's sort of a Napoleonic-Medieval fusion with a dash of LOTR High Elves for the Union, while the Northerners are more like grubby 17th Century types without the frills.

http://www.firstlawcomic.com/archive/

[Berg]

Thanks for the comments!

@ Arlequín: I have read what you have written about using dragon rampant for Wotr (and most everything else you have on your blog, very inspiring). I really should try to play a couple of games  soon. I have sharpe practice and have played a few games in the napoleonic era, everyone except me hated the game. Sharpe practice 2 coming was new to me, thats exciting!

@ Miantanomo: You do have a point about the mercenary aspect

@ Captain Blood: You really dont need to pimp your threads! I have read every page more than once and they are one of the causes i keep buying and painting those perry miniatures

I have decided (and started) to rebase all of the miniatures on 20mm steel washers and adding sand and grass. they are at the moment on 2mm thick mdf and keeps falling of the movement trays with the slightest nudge.

I will post some pics with the finished bases later.

[Arlequín]

Thanks... I'm all talk though, just to be clear. 

Memory might fail me, but I seem to recall Sharp Practice 2 might be with us as soon as Salute. http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=5404

[Atheling]

Apologies for going slightly OT but......

Memory might fail me, but I seem to recall Sharp Practice 2 might be with us as soon as Salute. http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=5404

I do hope so as it would make a great set of rules for the Indian Mutiny/First War of Independence!!  

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

Indeed and I gather there's a couple of add-ins from other games, such as the force morale system from CoC... which will definitely enhance the game. SP was very good, flexible and challenging, SP2 promises to be the same and then some.

I will be at the ready to bend and twist it where it doesn't really want to go of course.  

 

[Dilettante Gamer]

Good work thus far! Thank you for sharing.

I would echo the adventurers above and encourage you to consider two paths:

1) More historical - Use them for WotR with Lion Rampant or perhaps another rules set. You might take a gander at Silent Invader's creation:

"By Arrow Bill and Sword"

You've probably seen the amazing games in Captain Blood's threads they've played using these. 

The pro's for this are:

   > Exploring a historical alternative to your fantasy gaming
   > Lots of great reading material, art, visual references
   > Great inspiration and counsel from the brain trust on this forum

Since he didn't promote it, I would encourage you to look at Arlequin's blog for some thoughtful approaches to adapting Lion Rampant to the WotR setting along with guidelines for a mini-campaign. That might galvanize something for you.

"Lion Rampant ant the Wars of the Roses Revisited"

2) On the other hand, you might consider historical-fantasy kitbashing medieval kits into Game of Thrones forces using Lion/Dragon Rampant.

There's a trove of projects in a compendium thread over in the Fantasy Adventures forum:

"LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread"

Some pro's for this:

   > Greater freedom to paint and kitbash your models if you feel constrained or overwhelmed by sticking to WotR / Burgundian history.
   > Lion/Dragon Rampant is nicely scaled for manageable forces with retinues totallying ~48 models. Sounds like you have enough figures to muster
      a few!
   > You can scale up to mass-battle rulesets when you have enough models painted. (If that's any sort of ambition you might have.)

Some thoughts.

DG

[Berg]

Good work thus far! Thank you for sharing.

I would echo the adventurers above and encourage you to consider two paths:

1) More historical - Use them for WotR with Lion Rampant or perhaps another rules set. You might take a gander at Silent Invader's creation:

"By Arrow Bill and Sword"

You've probably seen the amazing games in Captain Blood's threads they've played using these. 

The pro's for this are:

   > Exploring a historical alternative to your fantasy gaming
   > Lots of great reading material, art, visual references
   > Great inspiration and counsel from the brain trust on this forum

Since he didn't promote it, I would encourage you to look at Arlequin's blog for some thoughtful approaches to adapting Lion Rampant to the WotR setting along with guidelines for a mini-campaign. That might galvanize something for you.

"Lion Rampant ant the Wars of the Roses Revisited"

2) On the other hand, you might consider historical-fantasy kitbashing medieval kits into Game of Thrones forces using Lion/Dragon Rampant.

There's a trove of projects in a compendium thread over in the Fantasy Adventures forum:

"LAF Game of Thrones Compendium Thread"

Some pro's for this:

   > Greater freedom to paint and kitbash your models if you feel constrained or overwhelmed by sticking to WotR / Burgundian history.
   > Lion/Dragon Rampant is nicely scaled for manageable forces with retinues totallying ~48 models. Sounds like you have enough figures to muster
      a few!
   > You can scale up to mass-battle rulesets when you have enough models painted. (If that's any sort of ambition you might have.)

Some thoughts.

DG

Thanks for the input!

If i manage to stay focused it will surely be some kind of larger battles in the future. I am more drawn to historical rather than fantasy with this project (i have an outlet for all my fantasy inspiration in frostgrave).

I keep visiting Arlequíns blog and his post on the february 13 really put words on what i wanted to do but didnt realise, sort of... 

Earlier this month i took advantage of the osprey 25% off ( I ordered: German medieval armies 1300-1500; English medieval knight 1400-1500; The wars of the Roses and Condottiere 1300-1500) and the books arrived today! The selection of books should give a hint about my lack of theme.

While slowly and painfully rebasing miniatures this evening i had a couple of thoughts. I should paint up a few extra flag bearers for each of my small forces. With the help of different flags and a few "iconic" units i can make them fit in different settings.

I am pleased with the way they look with a little sand and grass on the bases, will take some pictures tomorrow.

/Berg

[khartoum2]

RE standard bearers I saw an article somewhere about making flags where the slid over the standard pole rather than being stuck to it

HE then was able to change flags to match the setting

Never tried it myself and can't remember where I read it but it may help a little

Good luck and love the figures - so much better than my mercenaries that I have ot he go

[Charlie_]

RE standard bearers I saw an article somewhere about making flags where the slid over the standard pole rather than being stuck to it

HE then was able to change flags to match the setting

Never tried it myself and can't remember where I read it but it may help a little

You could also maybe replace the plastic flag poles with metal wire ones, drill the hands out for them, and maybe the whole flag with flagpole could be slid in and out. I've considered doing this myself.

Or just paint up some extra standard bearers!

[Arlequín]

Since he didn't promote it...

I'm English and was brought up properly, we just don't do that sort of thing. *sniff*. 

I keep visiting Arlequíns blog and his post on the february 13 really put words on what i wanted to do but didnt realise, sort of... 

It's nothing original and owes its beginnings in the coverage of fantasy projects on LAF like 'Breugelburg' and even going back to the old WFRP 'Marienburg' supplement... just because I'm all historical and that, doesn't mean I've not got a fun side... honest.

But yes a back story and a 'world of their own' is important to me and all part of the parcel... even the Captain's and SI's own figures have their own narratives and reason for being, it might only be one line, but nevertheless it's there.

 

DT's summation is good and there is no reason why you even have to plant your feet firmly in one camp or another, just see how it goes.
As for your spread of books, they will all come in useful whichever way you go. For a society without motor transport, professional soldiers got about quite a bit across Europe. Polish winged hussars in 15th Century England might be pushing the boundaries, but Germans, Swiss and Spanish pop-up in the WotR and of course the English can be found as far away as Italy.

GoT obviously draws its demographics from a wide swathe of European history (both time-wise and culturally), so each 'ethnic' part of the whole has its own style too. Pretty much whatever you do can drop in somewhere in the setting.