I Tried 28mm Pike & Shotte, And Cried

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I finally playtested 28mm P&S and was slightly discontent. The rules should be tweaked if you play this game with 28mm miniatures on a regular 6x4 table. Blog with review and links to rule tweaks here: http://amsterdam6shooters.nl/node/614

But I got the feeling that the table was too small or the scale too big. I tried, I cried, I ran away. But after the tears I found solutions. I'll try to clearly adress each problem so that this blog is also readable for players who don't know the rulesets. 28mm-fanboys, BEWARE! You play a game that's not suited for your regular dinner table, so you should change the rules.

[henerius]

It is strange to read this.

We have been playing the game on 6x4, 7x5 and 8x6 feet tables.  The small table is fit for smaller encounters. The 8x6 feet table is suitable for most games.
I played a game with 20 units per side on a 8x4feet table no problems at all. the armies were twice ass big and the table only 2x4 feet bigger then the one you discribe.

Changing the size of the models is seen more often. Changing the distances for moving is also done more often with smaller scales, if it suites you at 28mm please do, but sofar I haven't seen a reason to do that.

Looking forward to youre developments.

cheers,

henerius

[fastolfrus]

20 units a side?
How small are the units?

My ECW foot units are 20 or 40 figures each, and horse are 15 or 30, so they take a lot of space.
(TYW Spanish are bigger still with foot in units 40-80)

[henerius]

20 units a side?
How small are the units?

My ECW foot units are 20 or 40 figures each, and horse are 15 or 30, so they take a lot of space.
(TYW Spanish are bigger still with foot in units 40-80)

for the feeling of massive...well, massive it is but at 28mm not very workable.

The illustrations in the book show 28mm figures. On page 19 you can see 16 models strong pike and shotte sleeves of 12 strong each and cavalry units of 12 each.

The book unit standard size
Block of infantry or Pikes   12 to 25 models
Infantry battle line            8 to 20 models
cavalry                           6 to 12 models

The book also makes the biggest cavalry unit 20 strong and the biggest infantry unit 40 strong. You use 30 strong horse unit and a 80 strong foot units?
Exeeding the unit sizes given by the book will give you units with a footprint which are not workable in the game. A situation that needs to be solved by bending/changing the rules given or by changing the size of the units.


We use the Italian war part of the rules.
Pikes are 16 strong
shotte is 8 strong
horse is 6 strong
These size of regiment is fairly small especially on the horse department but it is workable for the game.

[Eric the Shed]

We are embarking on a ECW campaign using Pike & Shotte - Fortunately I have a table 5ft x 16ft but the comments on unit sizes are interesting.

At present we will be fielding Cavalry units (in two ranks 12 figures strong)

Pike Blocks either 12 or 16 figures and the sleeves between 8 and 12 strong.

The ultimate plan is to be able to field 6-8 pike blocks per side plus adjacent sleeves - upwards of 6-8 cavalry regiments per side along with dragoons, commanded shotte, and artillery.

Hopefully the table will be big enough 

[Corso]

We usually play the game on a 6x4 table. 700points usually, generally in 3 battalias. I have played on an 8x5 table at a friend's house. That was better, but very few have that size of table.

Size of units we use are
16 models per pike block, deployed 4x4 - large unit 6x4 (24 models)
12 models for battle line foot, deployed 6x2
8 models for cavalry, deployed 4x2

We don't reduce ranges, but play it as stated in the book.

[Arlequín]

I finally playtested 28mm P&S and was slightly discontent. The rules should be tweaked if you play this game with 28mm miniatures on a regular 6x4 table.

I know Warlord do not go out of their way to point this out, but Pike and Shotte, Hail Caesar and Black Powder, were all designed to be 'big table - big battle' rules from the word go.

As Rick Priestley said in an Wargames Illustrated interview (http://www.warlordgames.com/interview-rick-priestley/) before Black Powder came out;

WI: It sounds like a lot of the emphasis of the game is on ‘big table battles’. Would Black Powder work for small table affairs, 6′ x 4′ or smaller?

Rick: You would have to change the movement rates and scale down.  It would work mechanically.  The reason it really is a big game for a big table is that it is a very visual game and that’s how we play.

No surprise therefore that you had problems, but I do think Warlord should be making this a bit clearer in their marketing.

[SteveBurt]

If you just halve all the measurements (so infantry move is 6" instead of 12") then Black Powder and its ilk work fine on a 6x4 table.
If you use the measurement in the rules, then 8x6 is about the minimum size table.

[Kommando_J]

I've found the same thing looking through the black powder TYW supplement...the suggested armies are huge, does anyone have any suggestions for something smaller/skirmish based,i'm collecting 28mm for both tyw/ecw and though primarily collecting for skirmishing wouldn't mind a few big battles once my collection grows.

[Sunjester]

We play Black Powder with 10mm using cm instead of inches, which works fine on a 6x4 for quite large armies. However I'd want at least an 8x6 to play it with 28mm, preferably 12x6.

[Hu Rhu]

We play regularly ECW with 28mm on a 6' x 4' table with 3 'divisions' usually of 3-4 units. Foot are circa 40 figures (16 pike & 2 sleeves of 8-12 musketeers) and cavalry about 6-8 per troop.  Personally I think that the Pike and Shotte rules work well. Move distances are shorter than for Black Powder and we have no problems with units charging up to 3 full moves.  Those that do, usually attack unsupported and are defeated, which seems to be realistic. You could scale the units down to produce smaller units if you needed to, more I suspect for cost rather than size.

[Codsticker]

I know Warlord do not go out of their way to point this out, but Pike and Shotte, Hail Caesar and Black Powder, were all designed to be 'big table - big battle' rules from the word go.

As Rick Priestley said in an Wargames Illustrated interview (http://www.warlordgames.com/interview-rick-priestley/) before Black Powder came out;

WI: It sounds like a lot of the emphasis of the game is on ‘big table battles’. Would Black Powder work for small table affairs, 6′ x 4′ or smaller?

Rick: You would have to change the movement rates and scale down.  It would work mechanically.  The reason it really is a big game for a big table is that it is a very visual game and that’s how we play.

No surprise therefore that you had problems, but I do think Warlord should be making this a bit clearer in their marketing.

Yes,I remember reading that the rules started off as a means of getting all their toy soldiers on huge tables and playing a game with all these figures in a reasonable amount of time. If memory serves, the inital development was not with an eye to producing them for sale. With that in mind, if you don't use them as intended then you will probably have to make adjustments (which is exactly what Rick and Co. would encourage).

[Kommando_J]

Found that myself, the generic-ness is flexible but it means that supplements or house ruling is needed straiht off...to be fair all warlords games are like that.

[Arlequín]

Is that a roundabout way of saying unfinished and not properly thought out?   

[Hu Rhu]

I would suggest 'built in flexibility' :-).  Most of us are happy to adapt otherwise perfectly good rules simply because they don't fit our perceptions of how it 'should be'.