May '40 Miniatures!!! Dutch Army 1940

[Daeothar]

...concerning the Landsverk and other support units. ummm.....next topic please. My lips are sealed. pom tie tom tie tom.

Oooh; you tease... 

Anyone interested in helping out? Send me a message here or on Facebook.

I've sent you a PM. 

[aktr]

Thanks for the info Daeothar

a few more questions

[Platoon A]
- [Command Group - Lieutenant, Sergeant, 11 rifles]
- [Group 1 - Sergeant, 1x Lewis LMG, 11x rifle]
- [Group 2 - Sergeant, 1x Lewis LMG, 11x rifle]
- [Group 3 - Sergeant, 1x Lewis LMG, 11x rifle]
.....

So if I'm reading this right a platoon would be
Command
Lieutenant (armed with a pistol presumably)
Sergeant (rifle)
10 x Rifle men

then 3 sections of
Sergeant (Rifle)
Gunner (Lewis)
10x Riflemen (some presumably carrying extra Lewis ammo)

did troops carry grenades?

I'm just trying to build my own CoC list (I know there is a test one but I like to design my own)

I look forward to seeing what support options become available for them especially the rumours of the armoured car

[Jager1815]

Describing how the Dutch army was organized can't be done in a couple of posts I'm afraid. There were so many variations on the regulations it's just scary to say: this is how it was and how you should build your army.

For instance:

A section consists of 30 -36 men. Divided over 3 groups + 1 commander (which often was the sergeant major or ranking sergeant ). But preferably a 2nd or first lieutenant.

The 3 were organised in either 3 lmg groups or 2 lmg groups and 1 skirmish group (without the Lewis). The groups with the lewis indeed carried extra lewis ammo. Descriptions vary in this, some say all the rifle man carrid a lewis box and one rifle box, some say only 5 men carried the lewis box.

The command "group" consisted of just the officer (most of the time)

I coukd go on and on. Will have to do this another way I think.

[Jager1815]

Forgot about the grenades.

The thing is, there are some conflicting sources but it is commanly accepted that we had grenades, but they were not issued. We were prepared for a defensive conflict. Grenades are primarily used in offensive tactics. So....in wargaming terms, I would say no to grenades.

[Daeothar]

@ aktr: on paper, there should be 11 riflemen in a squad, one rifle armed sergeant and a machinegunner, for a total of 13 men. One or more riflemen would also be carrying ammo for the Lewis, but since the Dutch army was on a defensive footing and mostly occupied prepared positions, the machineguns were in position, and would not have moved much as a result (only in the inevitable retreats of course).

I'm not certain about armament for officers. Most seem to have had a pistol and sabre, but since officers at that time had a lot of freedom to add to or replace elements of their uniform and gear, that is not set in stone.

I've seen pictures and/or read descriptions of officers with rifles, carabines, pistols, revolvers, cavalry sabres and even the 'famous' Klewang (basically an Indonesian machette. Although I suspect that officers having done tours in 'The East' might have called any long bladed weapon as such. The standard infantry sabre was called a klewang as well).

However; many units were issued with the 'Stormdagger', which basically was a bayonet, to replace their klewangs, but most officers and even NCOs retained their blades.

Forgot about the grenades.

The thing is, there are some conflicting sources but it is commanly accepted that we had grenades, but they were not issued. We were prepared for a defensive conflict. Grenades are primarily used in offensive tactics. So....in wargaming terms, I would say no to grenades.

Actually... Grenades were plentiful (500K available per May 1940), and several sources report that they were widely used. Most were defensive grenades as opposed to offensive/attack grenades.

They were of the egg type (Eihandgranaat No. 1, 2 en 3), but right now, I have no idea how they were carried. I am not aware of any specialized grenade pouches or bags. Some models appear to have had a clip, so they might have been clipped to belts/webbing...

[Jager1815]

Have to disagree with some of the things you are saying  but that's alright. We'll have a thourough discussion on those things ;-)

[Jager1815]

One thing on the grenades. I just checked with someone who's even more into this subject than me. He lives and breathes this stuff.

Grenades were available. But were used in such small numbers you could say the weren't at all. The troops had so little training with them, they were actually afraid to yse them.

The defensive grenades were meant for close combat support (max 25 meters) which happened almost no where.

How the were carried? Hmmmm probabl in pockets or in the breadbag. There were indeed no specialized grenade pouches (which also hints at them not being widely used).
Another possibility is that they were stored in their original crates and were stacked in the defensive positions. Up for grabs when needed. But that's all speculation...

[Daeothar]

One thing on the grenades. I just checked with someone who's even more into this subject than me. He lives and breathes this stuff.

Grenades were available. But were used in such small numbers you could say the weren't at all. The troops had so little training with them, they were actually afraid to yse them.

That would certainly explain the total absense of grenades in any and all pictures of the conflict I have seen so far. Several sources report availability of between 400 and 500 thousand handgrenades of the No. 1, 2or 3 types being available. They do not say whether or not they were distributed and used, although one source mentions that they were used extensively, at least at the Grebbeberg.

But this is not the first (or last) time I've encountered conflicting sources of course.

The defensive grenades were meant for close combat support (max 25 meters) which happened almost no where.

Grebbeberg, Peel-Raam stelling, Rotterdam, Dordrecht, Ypenburg, Valkenburg...

How the were carried? Hmmmm probabl in pockets or in the breadbag. There were indeed no specialized grenade pouches (which also hints at them not being widely used).
Another possibility is that they were stored in their original crates and were stacked in the defensive positions. Up for grabs when needed. But that's all speculation...

In the end though, I will have to agree with you there. And as far as modeling and gaming is concerned, they would not play any significant role anyway, bar perhaps in certain scenario's or special rules.

[aktr]

Hi,

Thanks for all this information its really useful. it doesn't matter if things are a bit vague - I know no paper formation survives contact with the enemy

my thinking at the moment is

Command - Senior Officer

3x sections of
A Sergeant (rifle)
10 x Riflemen
Lewis (2 crew)

Grenades will be an option you can 'buy' for the army, along with another senior officer, the option to change the 3rd section into a skirmish sections and the usual support things

of course it might depend on what size packs you sell the infantry in

[Jager1815]

That's just the thing. Most of the sources speak of 12 men incl the sergeant, lewis and helper.

[aktr]

I'll change it to 12 total then

[Kane]

... or in the breadbag.

Painful if you pull out and boil the wrong egg for breakfast. 

[Jager1815]

 

That would give a nasty surprise.

But if you want to carry grenades in Dutch uniform it's sort of the only viable option. I have an almost complete uniform at home. There's not much room to put them somewhere else. The gasmask bag is not an option.

[Jager1815]

Just a bit of an update on production. The 13th will be moulding day and casting masters, loads of masters. When I have these as many as needed will be cleaned and checked thouroughly. those will be used for making the production moulds. The other masters will be used for painting display miniatures and I'll probably send some out to certain people to do a review.

I can't yet say when the actual production is starting but it will be soon. Not soon enough but soon.

Crisis Antwerp, 5th of november 2016 will be the first Wargaming event I'll be at, not as just a punter but with a stand. Shared with Sally4th. Looking forward to that!

Cheers!!

Sander

[Kane]

I'll be sure to pop by. Though I'm Belgian and not really into the 1940 Dutch guys, I'm interested in what you're making.