*

Recent Topics

Author Topic: DR Troop Types for LOTR  (Read 11833 times)

Offline Ethelred the Almost Ready

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1123
DR Troop Types for LOTR
« on: 25 June 2016, 06:56:40 AM »
I have quoted Hobgoblin below:

"Thanks! That's good to know. I think "how do you represent the Uruk-hai" is a real conundrum for gaming Middle Earth. Uruks have a lot of positives:

The ability to move at great speeds for long distances
heavy armour that doesn't impede the above
powerful bows (that all of them seem to carry)
reasonable discipline
good morale and considerable ferocity

Nevertheless, they appear in the tens of thousands (uruks seem to make up the bulk of the armies of Isengard andMordor, and also appear in the forces of the North). And they die in their droves. The one disadvantage Tolkien consistently points to is their small stature. To that you could add a bit of ill discipline (wasting arrows and the like). A tendency to turn on their own kind isn't really a battlefield weakness; they don't do it randomly in the books.

So, the conundrum is, how do you get fast, heavily armoured combined archers/melee troops to appear in large numbers and not unbalance the game?

One thing I've thought of for DR is to use two models for one (so half a strength point each) in Bellicose Foot units with Shiny Armour and give them bows for free in return for a disadvantage against Man-sized shieldwalls. The idea is that the Wild Charge will give them limited use of their bows (just a 4" band of effective range before Wild Charge kicks in, to simulate aggression/shooting off all their arrows, etc. But the problem with this is that it rules out the "Death of Boromir" - and the fact that a good officer - like Ugluk - is able to stop them from charging and wasting their arrows.

Would double-sized units (with no mechanical effects - just two models removed for each kill) work OK in Saga? And does it have capacity for units that are both heavily armoured melee specialists and bow-armed? I can't think of any historical analogues, though there are some parallels with Persian and Byzantine heavy cavalry.

(This obsession probably appears marginally insane! But it is a tough one. In SBH, you can model it well by upping the combat score, adding the bow, but also adding the Rabble trait for all but the leaders, so that you get vicious and relatively fearsome enemies who will, nevertheless, die in their droves ....)
"

Are there any thoughts about how LOTR/Silmarillion armies should be represented in DR?
I will post my thoughts soon, but dinner and wine have just arrived at the table!

Offline Ethelred the Almost Ready

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1123
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #1 on: 25 June 2016, 07:33:54 AM »
Noldor Elves, First Age:
I think most would be Heavy Foot, offensive.
The forces from Gondolin were stated to be spear armed and would therefore mainly be standard heavy foot (with wall of spears).
They are supplemented by light missiles, sharp shooters.  Elite riders.  They might also have rangers - elite foot, missiles.
Heroes are individual figures, mainly as elite foot.  The odd wizardling might be appropriate.

Orcs:
These could include bellicose foot (some with terrifically shiney armour), some as light foot with or without missiles or offensive, scouts.  Commanders might be attached to heavy foot, offensive.
Add trolls - Greater Warbeasts, cunning, fear; wargs - lesser warbeasts, cunning, fear vs cavalry.
I am unsure about wolf riders and then there is the odd werewolf and Balrog to think about.

Could the Uruks be best represented as bellicose foot with shiney armour?  This covers many of Hobgoblin's requirements (although not all).

Dwarves:
I can't see these as much other than heavy foot, with a few scouts and elite foot.

Offline Sunjester

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1816
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #2 on: 25 June 2016, 12:23:50 PM »
My own take on Middle Earth orcs

Elite Uruks/Bodyguard Orcs (such as Bolg's bodyguard or Ugluk's followers): Bellicose Foot (possibly with Shiny Armour)
Uruks/Soldier Orcs: Light Foot with either Offensive or Mixed Weapons
Snaga/Smaller Orcs: Light Foot with Mixed Weapons and Fearful
Trolls: Elite Foot
Wargs/Wolves: Lesser Warbeasts
Wolf Riders: still undecided either Heavy Riders with Fearful or else Light Riders with Short Range Missiles

For the First Age I wouldn't upgrade Bellicose Foot with Shiny Armour and there wouldn't be any Uruks or wolf riders.

Offline Vermis

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #3 on: 25 June 2016, 12:46:15 PM »
Is there any appreciable difference between a dwarf armed with an axe and a dwarf armed with a mattock? :) Venomous for the extra anti-armour punch of a mattock?

Trolls... I dunno. I suppose there's not much in it, but for myself I'd keep greater warbeasts for the really big stuff, as suggested in the book. Like balrogs and dragons. I'd put trolls as elite foot, or as the book also suggests, heavy foot. YMMV!

I can't see much difference between werewolves and wargs. IIRC Hobgoblin was able to drag up an obscure reference of the former transforming, but I don't think they're the same as the shapeshifting humans of old stories and modern pop-culture. (There was Sauron, but he wasn't human, and at that time could take the shape of anything he wanted!) Looking at the likes of Drauglin and Carcharoth, they seem to be Maiar or other spirits in bigger, more powerful wolf-forms. Much like wargs; and I think the implication (or inference) is that the Third Age wargs are descendants of First Age werewolves. (Gandalf mentions werewolves in Sauron's service in the Third Age, but like orcs, that could be a hint of the longevity of Maiar 'form-takers', or the race in general)

Game-wise, I'd say treat them the same as wargs. Maybe reduced model to represent greater power, or an actual boost from some fantastical rule? (Fear vs. everything, not just cav?)

Wolf riders: flame/spore attack, representing orc bows. :)

Offline Gibby

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2449
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #4 on: 25 June 2016, 12:57:01 PM »
Are the Uruks ever described as particularly good shots? Even if they get those free powerful bows, you could make it so their shoot stat is crap. With my dice rolling they'd never hit anything! You remember the part in the Fellowship of the Ring film where Lurtz has an arrow drawn right in Boromir's face? If I was rolling for that, I'd miss, even if Aragorn didn't show up!

Offline Hobgoblin

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 5444
    • Hobgoblinry
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #5 on: 25 June 2016, 01:23:13 PM »
Are the Uruks ever described as particularly good shots? Even if they get those free powerful bows, you could make it so their shoot stat is crap. With my dice rolling they'd never hit anything! You remember the part in the Fellowship of the Ring film where Lurtz has an arrow drawn right in Boromir's face? If I was rolling for that, I'd miss, even if Aragorn didn't show up!

They do kill Boromir, but it takes them some time:

"He had made them fight. He slew many of them and the rest fled. But they had not gone far on the way back when they were attacked again, by a hundred Orcs at least, some of them very large, and they shot a rain of arrows: always at Boromir. Boromir had blown his great horn till the woods rang, and at first the Orcs had been dismayed and had drawn back; but when no answer but the echoes came, they had attacked more fiercely than ever. Pippin did not remember much more. His last memory was of Boromir leaning against a tree, plucking out an arrow; then darkness fell suddenly."

Balin is killed by an orcish "sniper" in Moria of course (whether one of the uruks present there or not we don't know), which implies a reasonably good shot.

Then again, the uruks do seem prone to wasting arrows (Ugluk has to rush off to stop them doing this in Rohan).

Offline Hobgoblin

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 5444
    • Hobgoblinry
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #6 on: 25 June 2016, 11:54:28 PM »
Trolls... I dunno. I suppose there's not much in it, but for myself I'd keep greater warbeasts for the really big stuff, as suggested in the book. Like balrogs and dragons. I'd put trolls as elite foot, or as the book also suggests, heavy foot. YMMV!

Yes, I'd agree with you and Sunjester that trolls should be a reduced-model unit. The description of the trolls at the Morannon - "taller and broader than Men" makes them sound big but not that big - maybe eight feet tall or something. They don't appear to be on the scale of the Mumakil or something like that. And when they clash with Men of Gondor, one knocks out a man and then is killed by a Hobbit (albeit one with a magical dagger); they're fighting hand to hand with Men, not trundling over them.

I might, though, represent trolls as reduced-model Bellicose Foot with the Armoured upgrade. Why? Because of this:

"Then even as he thought these things the first assault crashed into them. The orcs hindered by the mires that lay before the hills halted and poured their arrows into the defending ranks. But through them there came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth. Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands. Reckless they sprang into the pools and waded across, bellowing as they came. Like a storm they broke upon the line of the men of Gondor, and beat upon helm and head, and arm and shield as smiths hewing the hot bending iron. At Pippin’s side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down."

That "Reckless" and "sprang", coupled with "Like a storm they broke ...", suggest to me that the trolls weren't much slowed by rough ground. So Bellicose Foot with the Shiny Armour upgrade sounds about right. Perhaps Venomous too, to convey that sense of "smiths hewing the hot bending iron".


I can't see much difference between werewolves and wargs. IIRC Hobgoblin was able to drag up an obscure reference of the former transforming, but I don't think they're the same as the shapeshifting humans of old stories and modern pop-culture. (There was Sauron, but he wasn't human, and at that time could take the shape of anything he wanted!) Looking at the likes of Drauglin and Carcharoth, they seem to be Maiar or other spirits in bigger, more powerful wolf-forms. Much like wargs; and I think the implication (or inference) is that the Third Age wargs are descendants of First Age werewolves. (Gandalf mentions werewolves in Sauron's service in the Third Age, but like orcs, that could be a hint of the longevity of Maiar 'form-takers', or the race in general)

I agree. I don't recall that discussion: Beren turns himself into a werewolf at one point, I think, but yes, they seem to be evil spirits in wolf form, not shapeshifters.

Game-wise, I'd say treat them the same as wargs. Maybe reduced model to represent greater power, or an actual boost from some fantastical rule? (Fear vs. everything, not just can?)

Yes - essentially warg "heroes".

Wolf riders: flame/spore attack, representing orc bows. :)

As Lesser Warbeasts? Yes - I think wolf-riders could either be represented as Lesser Warbeasts or as Light Riders causing Fear in horses. Or a mix of both. Or, maybe something odd like Light Riders plus Venomous, giving them speed and real "bite".

One argument for wolfriders as Lesser Warbeasts rather than Light Riders is that the former aren't slowed by terrain. It's hard to imagine Orc-ridden wargs being slowed by a wood, for example.

Offline Vermis

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #7 on: 26 June 2016, 01:59:59 AM »
I don't recall that discussion:

I might have dreamed it, or misremembered the Beren reference. Sorry!

I wonder if there's a case to be made for two troll profiles, if the 'hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth' were likely to be the Olog-Hai from the appendix - 'a troll-race not before seen'. That and the question of what stock Sauron bred them from suggests they were physically different, but details are frustratingly vague. They're big and fierce and possibly scaly, like other trolls. Their increased cunning and ability to withstand sunlight (and ferocity?) seem to be more due to Sauron exerting his will on them.

Same troll minis, heavy foot or bellicose foot (armed with hammers and bucklers) depending on whether late Third Age Mordor force, or not?

Offline Hobgoblin

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 5444
    • Hobgoblinry
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #8 on: 26 June 2016, 08:50:02 AM »
I might have dreamed it, or misremembered the Beren reference. Sorry!

No problem! (And it's perfectly possible that I was spouting nonsense at some point ...)

I wonder if there's a case to be made for two troll profiles, if the 'hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth' were likely to be the Olog-Hai from the appendix - 'a troll-race not before seen'.

Yes, I think they must be the Olog-hai: they appear in daylight and are armed with weapons and so on.

Also - and I think that this is a really important point in talking about Tolkien in gaming circles - Tolkien doesn't use his terms neatly. The best example (and my favourite hobby horse!) is the Uruk-hai - who, for the most part, aren't called the Uruk-hai, but are just called "Orcs" (or "goblins").

Gamers always seem to be talking about "Orcs and Uruk-hai", but Tolkien never makes that distinction: he generally describes the creatures as "Orcs" in the narrative voice and then has them call themselves "the Uruk-hai". There is the odd exception in the text: references to "Uruks" or "the Uruk-hai", but those are never distinguished from, or contrasted with, "Orcs".

So, in the same vein, we shouldn't be looking for a reference to "Olog-hai" in the main text (the protagonists never meet someone who talks about the Olog-hai", so they don't know the term). Instead, we should be looking for references to new and improved types of troll. And - lo and behold - we get a description of "upgraded" trolls in FoTR and a "showing" of agile, fierce, sun-enduring trolls armed with dreadful weapons in RoTK.

All of which is a very long-winded way of saying "Yes, exactly"!


That and the question of what stock Sauron bred them from suggests they were physically different, but details are frustratingly vague. They're big and fierce and possibly scaly, like other trolls. Their increased cunning and ability to withstand sunlight (and ferocity?) seem to be more due to Sauron exerting his will on them.

Same troll minis, heavy foot or bellicose foot (armed with hammers and bucklers) depending on whether late Third Age Mordor force, or not?

That sounds a good plan - though perhaps only the Olog-hai are armed:

"Trolls were abroad, no longer dullwitted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons."

And I think that heavy foot/bellicose foot distinction might be backed up by this:

"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them."

Cunning and agility seem to be Olog-hai-specific traits: note the repetition of "cunning" in the two descriptions of the new type of troll.

And that agility gives us both the springing, rough-terrain disregarding trolls of the Morannon and - in Dragon Rampant terms - Bellicose Foot rather than Heavy Foot for the more agile, newfangled trolls.

Offline Vermis

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #9 on: 26 June 2016, 02:17:51 PM »
Also - and I think that this is a really important point in talking about Tolkien in gaming circles - Tolkien doesn't use his terms neatly. The best example (and my favourite hobby horse!) is the Uruk-hai - who, for the most part, aren't called the Uruk-hai, but are just called "Orcs" (or "goblins").

Gamers always seem to be talking about "Orcs and Uruk-hai", but Tolkien never makes that distinction...

Oh yes! I think trolls suffer almost as much. Apart from the term and description of 'Olog-Hai' contributing to the confusion of Uruk-Hai vs. orcs... well, as an example, I'm quite fond of the Tolkien Gateway as a quick Middle-Earth wiki reference. It's book-based and reasonably thorough. But when you look at the page for trolls, it's pretty short and quickly turns into a list of links for seven(!) troll 'breeds' - including splitting (Gorgoroth) 'hill-trolls' and 'Olog-Hai' into different types - for little more reason than the geographic monikers they're given in the story. (I also notice that it says trolls were created by Morgoth in the First Age, but the cited reference for that - Appendix F in LotR - only says they were dull, lumpish creatures given wits and speech by Sauron!)

Quote
That sounds a good plan - though perhaps only the Olog-hai are armed:

Ah, yes, that's what I meant - 'bellicose' Gorgoroth trolls with hammers and bucklers. :) I knew I'd worded it badly!

Quote
Cunning and agility seem to be Olog-hai-specific traits: note the repetition of "cunning" in the two descriptions of the new type of troll.

And that agility gives us both the springing, rough-terrain disregarding trolls of the Morannon and - in Dragon Rampant terms - Bellicose Foot rather than Heavy Foot for the more agile, newfangled trolls.

Yes! I also think that might be the biggest clue to any physical difference, even to a vague resemblance to orcs. What does a more agile troll look like? Thinner and less 'lumpish'? Longer and/or thinner legs? Particularly if Bilbo was able to identify a trio of stone-trolls (Trollus bogstandardus lapis ;D ) partly by the shape of their legs. Maybe they even *gasp* had toes!

Offline LCpl McDoom

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • Scientist
  • *
  • Posts: 233
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #10 on: 29 June 2016, 09:36:33 PM »
I have nothing of substance to add to this thread except my admiration to all taking part, and my hopeful anticipation that it will continue  :)

Offline Vermis

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #11 on: 12 July 2016, 11:12:09 PM »
I got to thinking about this topic, and decided to check through the books I have here for references to First-Age fighting methods, weapons, and armour. (I thought it'd be less arduous checking Arda than wrestling with Westeros! I'll get me coat) To be honest most of what I found might affect the appearance of the models rather than providing a lot of unusual kinks in the types and special rules of the army lists, but anyway.
I read through The Silmarillion and the First-Age section of Unfinished Tales. So I read the short version of the Narn i Hîn Húrin and the long version of the Narn i Hîn Húrin, and I have the even longer version of the Narn i Hîn Húrin on my bookshelf! Forgot I even had it, let alone to read it. I think I'll leave that one aside for the mo. I also flicked through Part One of The Book of Lost Tales, but didn't find many descriptions there.

So, yeah, Noldor first. I didn't see too much to contradict Ethelred's opinions. There are a lot of references to mail, swords, spears and shields; too many to quote. Right from the start, before the First Age of the Sun even begins...

Oh, and SPOILERS





Quote from: Silmarillion, page 61
And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied with eachother... And Fëanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red.

And for the Sindar too:

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 86
Therefore Thingol took thought for arms, which before his people had not needed, and these at first the Naugrim smithied for him; for they were greatly skilled in such work...

Their smithcraft indeed the Sindar soon learned of them; yet in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival.
  At this time therefore the Sindar were well-armed, and they drove off all creatures of evil, and had peace again; but Thingol's armouries were stored with axes and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail; for the hauberks of the Dwarves were so fashioned that they rusted not but shone ever as if they were new-burnished.

Two things: red plumes. Too much to hope that's the signature colour of Fëanor's house and sons?

Also, note that Dwarves invented basic mail. No doubt the Noldor would have soon picked it up after returning to Middle-earth, but what would they have worn in the early days, especially for the Battle-under-Stars? No armour? Cloth armour? Scale armour? For the latter, from Tuor's encounter with Ulmo:

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, page 37
Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glittering in the dusk; and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of a mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land.

... and Thingol's armouries:

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, page 99
Now Thingol had in Menegroth deep armouries filled with great wealth of weapons: metal wrought like fishes' mail and shining like water in the moon; swords and axes, shields and helms, wrought by Telchar himself or by his master Gamil Zirak the old, or by elven-wrights more skilful still. For some things he had received in gift that came out of Valinor and were wrought by Fëanor in his mastery...

There are a few straws to clutch at: that 'metal wrought like fishes' mail' is scale armour; that's it's one of the gifts originally from Valinor; and that the Noldor may have made it in imitation of Ulmo's coat. But it's entertaining to think of.

*     *     *

There are a few references and hints about the appearance of Noldorin armies, and even some differences between them:

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 101
But as the host of Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming in the West; and Fingolfin unfurled his blue and silver banners, and blew his horns...

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 106
Now the people of Caranthir dwelt furthest east beyond the upper waters of Gelion, about lake Helevorn under Mount Rerir and to the southward... and when the Dwarves began again to journey into Beleriand all the traffic of the dwarf-mines passed through the hands of Caranthir, and thus great riches came to him.

Quote from: Silmarillion, pages 107-108
In that labour Finrod was aided by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains; and they were rewarded well, for Finrod had brought more treasures out of Tirion than any other of the princes of the Noldor. And in that time was made for him the Nauglamir, the Necklace of the Dwarves, most renowned of their work in the Elder Days. It was a carcanet of gold, and set therein were gems uncounted from Valinor.

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 148
But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

Ethelred's Gondolin references:

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 190
For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the Leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest.

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 192
... And the Gondolindrim were strong and clad in mail, and their ranks shone like a river of steel in the sun.

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, pages 36-37
Then Tuor marvelling saw that on the wall behind the throne there hung a shield and a great hauberk, and a helm and a long sword in a sheath. The hauberk shone as it were wrought of silver untarnished, and the sunbeam gilded it with sparks of gold. But the shield was of a strange shape to Tuor's eyes, for it was long and tapering; and it's field was blue, in the midst of which was wrought an emblem of a white swan's wing... And he lifted down the shield and found it light and wieldy beyond his guess; for it was wrought, it seemed, of wood, but overlaid by the craft of elven-smiths with plates of metal, strong and yet as thin as foil, whereby it had been preserved from worm and weather.
  Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall... And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm...

Hints that Elf-mail (with or without Dwarfish influence) was particularly silvery; that the colours of Fingolfin's house (including his son Turgon) were blue and silver; that some kingdoms of Noldor, at least, had plenty of opportunity for decoration, with Valinorian gems or Dwarfish riches; and that the Noldor used tapered shields. Given the early medieval influence on Middle-earth I like to think of them as kite shields.

The overlay of strong, foil-thin metal is something. There's another reference a bit like it...

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 127
Now the traffic of the Dwarves down from the Blue Mountains followed two roads across East Beleriand, and the northern way, going towards the Fords of Aros, passed nigh to Nan Elmoth; and there Eöl would meet the Naugrim and hold converse with them. And as their friendship grew he would at times go and dwell as guest in the deep mansions of Nogrod or Belegost. There he learned much of metalwork, and came to great skill therein; and he devised a metal as hard as the steel of the Dwarves, but so malleable that he could make it thin and supple; and yet it remained resistant to all blades and darts. He named it galvorn, for it was black and shining like jet, and he was clad in it whenever he went abroad.

It looks like only Eöl made use of galvorn, and he didn't go on many sorties or raids from the middle of his dark wood. I guess the dwarves trusted to proper steel more, and other elves had no trouble working metal fine and strong.

*     *     *

For more differences, and something that might actually affect unit choice in DR: the open lands around the March of Maedhros, where Fëanor's sons settled, suggested cavalry, and sure enough, not just them...

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 110
Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband...

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 112
But their chief fortress was at Eithel Sirion in the east of Ered Wethrin, whence they kept watch upon Ard-Galen; and their cavalry rode upon that plain even to the shadow of Thangorodrim, for from few their horses had increased swiftly, and the grass of Ard-Galen was rich and green. Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses, for they had been carried by ship to Losgar.

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 118
East of Dorthonion the marches of Beleriand were most open to attack, and only hills of no great height guarded the vale of Gelion from the north. In that region, upon the March of Maedhros and in the lands behind, dwelt the sons of Fëanor with many people; and their riders passed often over the vast northern plain, Lothlann the wide and empty, east of Ard-Galen, lest Morgoth should attempt any sortie towards east Beleriand.
 
Between the arms of Gelion was the ward of Maglor, and here in one place the hills failed altogether; there it was that the Orcs came into East Beleriand before the Third Battle. Therefore the Noldor held strength of cavalry in the plains at that place...

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 156
But King Fingon was hard put to it to hold back the army of Angband that came down from the north; and battle was joined upon the very plains of Hithlum. There Fingon was outnumbered; but the ships of Círdan sailed in great strength up the Firth of Drengist, and in the hour of need the Elves of the Falas came upon the host of Morgoth from the west. Then the Orcs broke and fled, and the Eldar had the victory, and their horsed archers pursued them even into the Iron Mountains.

(I'm going to assume that's Fingon's horsed archers.)

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 175
... Celegorm rode upon him with a spear...

*     *     *

There are fantastic descriptions of the guards of each of Gondolin's seven gates, in Unfinished Tales. Starting with the first, the Wood Gate:

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, page 59
Then Voronwë led Tuor towards the light, and as they drew near many Noldor, mail-clad and armed, stepped forward out of the darkness and surrounded them with drawn swords.

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, page 62
'Here stands the Second Gate, the Gate of Stone,' said Elemmakil... And they passed through, into a court where stood many armed guards clad in grey.

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, pages 62-63
... And in it was set the Third Gate, the Gate of Bronze... Again silently they passed the gate, and saw in the court beyond a yet greater company of guards in mail that glowed like dull fire; and the blades of their axes were red. Of the kindred of the Sindar of Nevrast for the most part were those that held this gate.

(Not sure if the red effect was from bronzed armour or the red torches about the gate. Given the gear of the guards of the other gates, probably the former.)

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, page 64
Now they passed through the lines of the Iron Guards that stood behind the Gate; black were their mantles and their mail and long shields, and their faces were masked with vizors bearing each an eagle's beak.

The Silver Gate:

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, page 64
And beyond the Gate in a wide court paved with marble, green and white, stood archers in silver mail and white-crested helms, a hundred upon either hand.

The Gold Gate:

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, page 65
In the court beyond were arrayed three hundred archers with long bows, and their mail was gilded, and tall golden plumes rose from their helmets; and their great round shields were red as flame.

The Great Steel Gate:

Quote from: Unfinished Tales, pages 65-67
Straightway there issued riders from the towers, but before those of the north tower came one upon a white horse; and he dismounted and strode towards them. And high and noble as was Elemmakil, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate. All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was a spike of steel pointed with a diamond; and as his esquire took his shield it shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand studs of crystal...
Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.

Swords, axes, hauberks, helms, vizors, long shields, round shields, archers, riders, ostentatious decoration... they've got it all! There's a bit of doubt about how many would actually leave Gondolin for a DR-sized scrap - IIRC they only came out for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. (Something I've typed so often the last few days, I don't need to look it up to spell anymore) But how could you resist modelling all of that?

*     *     *

That's the northern Noldor. I'd say there's no type of unit that any one land couldn't include; but personally I'd skew towards more riders - especially horse archers - for Fingolfin and Fingon in Hithlum and Ard-Galen, and Maedhros and his brothers in the north marches of East Beleriand (little mention of Angrod and Aenor in Dorthonion, but with gentle northern slopes leading to Ard-Galen, I'm guessing plenty of horses there too). Perhaps fewer riders, but more heavy infantry and archers in Gondolin.

Last but not least, Nargothrond, ruled by Finrod Felagund and Orodreth after him. The plains of Talath Dirnen suggest they wouldn't have had few riders either. Also:

Quote
Upon that plain the Elves of Nargothrond kept unceasing watch; and every hill upon its borders was crowned with hidden towers, and through all its woods and fields archers ranged secretly and with great craft. Their arrows were sure and deadly, and nothing crept there against their will.

Scouts. Lots of scouts.
« Last Edit: 13 July 2016, 12:29:26 AM by Vermis »

Offline Vermis

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #12 on: 13 July 2016, 12:29:35 AM »
But uh-oh! Here comes the Dagor Bragollach! 455 years after the beginning of the First Age and the return of the Noldor.

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 146
Thus Ard-Galen perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless. Thereafter its name was changed, and it was called Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust...
And they broke the leaguer about Angband, and slew wherever they found them the Noldor and their allies, Grey-elves and Men.

Quote from: Silmarillion, pages 147-148
For the war had gone ill with the sons of Fëanor... And Celegorm and Curufin being defeated fled south and west by the marches of Doriath, and coming at last to Nargothrond sought harbour with Finrod Felagund. Thus it came to pass that their people swelled the strength of Nargothrond...

...the great fortress upon the Hill of Himring could not be taken, and many of the most valiant that remained, both of the people of Dorthonion and of the east marches, rallied there to Maedhros; and for a while he closed once more the Pass of Aglon, so that the Orcs could not enter Beleriand by that road. But they overwhelmed the riders of the people of Fëanor upon Lothlann, for Glaurung came thither, and passed through Maglor's Gap, and destroyed all the land between the arms of Gelion.
 
Maglor joined Maedhros upon Himring; but Caranthir fled and joined the remnant of the scattered folk of the hunters, Amrod and Amras, and they retreated and passed Ramdal in the south. Upon Amon Ereb they maintained a watch and some strength of war, and they had aid of the Green-elves; and the Orcs came not into Ossiriand, nor to Taur-im-Duinath and the wilds of the south.

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 167
So great a fear did [Curufin] set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm [Nargothrond] go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursed all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.

Less space and grazing for Noldor horses - although not nothing. Fingon held Hithlum, and the earlier reference to Círdan coming to the aid of Fingon's horse archers is post-Bragollach. Turgon's still hidden in Gondolin - not many changes there. Fewer heavy units and Green-elf/Laiquendi scouts for Caranthir, Amrod and Amras. (More about allies later. Much later.) And even more scouts for Nargothrond- with added invisibility, enchanted arrows, and wizardlings?

*     *     *

Just when you thought it was safe - Nirnaeth Arnoediad. F.A. 472, a mere seventeen years later...

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 192
But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart.
  Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed. Many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor...

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 194
The realm of Fingon was no more; and the sons of Fëanor wandered as leaves before the wind. There arms were scattered, and their league broken; and they took to a wild and woodland life beneath the feet of Ered Lindon, mingling with the Green-elves of Ossiriand, bereft of their power and glory of old. In Brethil some few of the Haladin yet dwelt in the protection of their woods, and Handir son of Haldir was their lord; but to Hithlum came back never one of Fingon's host, nor any of the Men of Hador's house...

The House of Fingolfin in Hithlum is completely wiped out. Maedhros and his remaining brothers are merged even more with the Green-elves. Turgon escaped in time. Although, some years afterwards, Túrin persuades Nargothrond to open up a little...

Quote from: Silmarillion, page 214
But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more. In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made...

... Although that didn't last long. And that's it for the Noldor until the War of Wrath began in F.A. 545.

Those are a few clues about Noldor weapons, armour, unit types, even periods within the First Age; but next: the Noldor themselves.

Offline Hobgoblin

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 5444
    • Hobgoblinry
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #13 on: 13 July 2016, 01:14:06 AM »

For the First Age I wouldn't upgrade Bellicose Foot with Shiny Armour and there wouldn't be any Uruks or wolf riders.

Was just thinking that I'd meant to reply to this a couple of weeks back - and then I saw Vermis's quote, which confirms First Age wolfriders:

"There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons."

Also, there are indications in Tolkien's writings that the uruks of the Third Age were novel to the Third Age rather than a complete innovation. The first thing is the passage from Morgoth's Ring:

"Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile." (emphasis mine)

So what Saruman did had been done before - by Morgoth or by his agents, chief among whom was Sauron.

And then, in Unfinished Tales, we get this from the end of the Second Age:

"The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dur ..."

and:

"... almost all of the great Orcs had fallen: they attempted no such attack again for long years after."

There are a couple of other references to the "great Orcs" in the same section ("Disaster of the Gladden Fields").

Taken together, these passages suggest that "great Orcs" were something that Morgoth and Sauron bred at various times - and that Saruman just chanced across the "recipe". It also suggests a cyclical set-up, whereby the rise of a dark lord begins the renewed breeding of large soldier-orcs. That cyclical things is something Tolkien even carries into our time, with the suggestion that orcs may be small and weak now, but in ancient times "they were strong and fell" (I forget where this reference is).

"Them Orcs is gettin' mighty big, Cletus."

"Yeah. One o' them Dark Lords must be settin' up agin."




« Last Edit: 13 July 2016, 06:51:35 AM by Hobgoblin »

Offline Ethelred the Almost Ready

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1123
Re: DR Troop Types for LOTR
« Reply #14 on: 13 July 2016, 01:15:55 AM »
I only have time for a quick reply.  It has been some years since I have read the Silmarillion so I may get a few things wrong.  I believe in the First Battle of Beleriand the Green Elves were said to have suffered high casualties because they were only lightly armed and armoured.  The Sindar clearly had access to mail and good weapons.
The Noldor in Aman are said to have made weapons and shields, but there is no comment on armour.  In the Battle Under the Stars the Noldor are successful, partly because they are greater in body and spirit than the other elves, and this may be enough, but I suspect they are adequately armoured, unlike the Green Elves.  They clearly cannot have mail, so what did they wear.  It is also clear that mail became the norm in the subsequent years, so whatever they initially wore must have been seen as inferior.  Perhaps a simple breast plate?  
The Noldor are often quite rash in battle and clearly have an offensive capacity and I would therefore make them heavy foot "offensive" except for the spear armed elves of Gondolin who suit using the wall of spears rule.
Apart from the horse archers, most elf cavalry seems to be fairly rash as well, and elite riders seems appropriate.

It gets harder to decide on how the Green Elves (Nandor/Laiquendi??) should be depicted - light missiles with fleet footed rule?
Also, for the small battles in places like the borderlands of Dorthonian I would see the elves as having lighter armour and being bow and sword armed.  These elven "rangers" are probably best depicted as elite foot with missiles.

Then we come to the Edain, the human allies of the elves.....................

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
7 Replies
3372 Views
Last post 16 April 2007, 08:21:46 AM
by Malamute
7 Replies
2633 Views
Last post 26 October 2008, 01:24:15 AM
by Calimero
7 Replies
2466 Views
Last post 23 March 2010, 10:26:08 PM
by rob_the_robgoblin
1 Replies
1119 Views
Last post 21 March 2013, 06:31:54 PM
by robh
7 Replies
1677 Views
Last post 31 August 2020, 02:24:25 PM
by Battle Brush Sigur