DR Troop Types for LOTR

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Thunderbolt Mountain High Elves, but I think they look more like Sindar.




It might be possible to swap out a spear for an axe???

These next guys look how I imagine Noldor, they may be a bit on the small side (I think they are more 25 than 28mm) so I'm unsure how they go with 28mm dark ages miniatures or Thunderbolt Mt.







It is annoying that no one seems to make elves with the more traditional (Tolkien and D&D) long sword and shield.  Two handed weapons seems to be more common.

[Vermis]

Balrogs - the last reading of the Sil actually diminished these for me. (Moreso than the 'it says they only looked like wings' argument...)

And by the valour of the Elves and Men of the North, which neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome, Hithlum remained unconquered...

At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces...

One of them might make Third Age Sindar and Dwarves lose it, just by the sight of it; but seems like they ain't no thing to First Age Noldor and Edain, and it takes two (including their best) to take out the Noldor king. I'd even thought of taking fear off them, though I suppose if Noldor have the same, it cancels out. What about Edain? Could they leave it to the Noldor to be the specialist balrog exterminators, while they stand fast behind a shieldwall?

It also made me think of them as something other than the giant bull-headed monsters of John Howe's art and the movies, though that's by-the-by except for perhaps one little thought - elite foot rather than warbeast?

Spiders - flying/burrowing might be entertaining, representing their climbing and scuttling abilities. That or a limited-range bog thee!

Captured Noldor - on one hand it seems like a complication, and a bit convenient to have supplies of Noldor for every skirmish. But on the other, it's an interesting quirk, and I don't really dislike it.

Slayer - interesting. It'd really pump up their elite nature and evoke that 'Orcs unaided no match for Noldor' bit. Though with everything else, a big points-cost unit that you wouldn't squeeze into 24 or even 36 points too many times. I wonder how it'd play.

Elf archers - no love for scouts? I think the evasive rules would suit the secretive 'guerilla' descriptions of Nargothrond Noldor and Laiquendi, short of giving them invisibility.

Models - my mind's eye runs a bit more mundane than Tom Meier's, but they still look fantastic - goes without saying. The other models (I've seen them before, can't remember where they're from - Grenadier/Mirliton?) are more like it, IMO, but I might prefer longer hauberks and fewer Prince George poses.

Everything else - agreed!

[dbsubashi]

If you are looking to keep the 10 point limit (note, I said if...), you may wish to make all non-Elves Fearful instead of giving the Noldor the fear rule. The net effect would be the same, and their opponents would be more numerous for that horde effect.

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Vermis: I may give things a try on the weekend. Probably need approx 48 points.  I did wonder about scouts, but I think most Noldor are pretty nasty and need some hand to hand capabilities.  Nandor/Laiquendi certainly fit with Scouts.  The other figures are, indeed, Mirliton/Grenadier.  I am quite taken with them despite the age of the sculpts and the funny stance of the spearmen in particular.

dbsubashi: Yes, I agree, fearful may be a good way to go if one wants to keep to points limits.

Of course, one might argue that you could simple represent Sindar as reduced bases of, perhaps 8 and Noldor reduced to 6 (for 12 SP units), but this takes the fun out of things.  The only problem with this is that it makes everything a bit vanilla, especially as magic is quite low key in Tolkien's works.


I did a small mock up of a battle, just put up 3 Noldor infantry against four orcs (two light foot with missiles and two bellicose foot) and had one unit of trolls. 
The Noldor smashed the orcs and the trolls smashed all the Noldor.  Perhaps trolls are better as elite foot with only 6 SP.  Attack dice of 3+, counter charge and shiny armour make trolls almost unstoppable, and yet Elves could defeat trolls (especially when you consider, as Vermis points out, it takes two Balrogs - much nastier than trolls- to take out a Noldo king).

[Hobgoblin]

Balrogs - the last reading of the Sil actually diminished these for me. (Moreso than the 'it says they only looked like wings' argument...)

One of them might make Third Age Sindar and Dwarves lose it, just by the sight of it; but seems like they ain't no thing to First Age Noldor and Edain, and it takes two (including their best) to take out the Noldor king. I'd even thought of taking fear off them, though I suppose if Noldor have the same, it cancels out. What about Edain? Could they leave it to the Noldor to be the specialist balrog exterminators, while they stand fast behind a shieldwall?

It also made me think of them as something other than the giant bull-headed monsters of John Howe's art and the movies, though that's by-the-by except for perhaps one little thought - elite foot rather than warbeast?

Those bull-headed/generic-demonic illustrations are wildly off what any of the texts say. Balrogs are never described as having horns or tails; the only indication of an animalistic appearance is the "mane" described in Moria (and "mane" is often used of humans: see Robert E Howard's endless descriptions of Conan). It's hard to see how an bestial creature with horns, wings, a tail, goat-like legs, etc., could fit even this vague description: "it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater" - and yet not come into focus later.

Another point: it's pretty clear that Tolkien changed his ideas on Balrogs over time, making them fewer in number (from hundreds to seven, if memory serves) and more powerful. So, for the texts in which the "many Balrogs" idea still holds, "Elite Foot" sounds highly appropriate.

An aside on the wings thing: I do think that the flying/batlike-wings argument is very largely a case of people (often unconsciously) trying to justify the received images of balrogs in illustrations and films. On which, three points:

If the "wings" spread from wall to wall in the huge hall in Moria through which the bridge of Khazad-dum ran, then they would be vastly out of proportion to their owner on the bridge. Not so if they're just its spreading cloak of shadow darkening the hall. If you follow the whole passage and try a sketch, you'll see what I mean.  

If the balrog were a flying creature, why did Gandalf try to defeat it by breaking the bridge? Remember, he didn't mean to be dragged down by its whip.

And - crucially to my mind - while the description shifts from "shadow" to "shadow [THAT] reached out like two vast wings" to "wings spread from wall to wall", it also shifts back. When the balrog falls, we get this line:

""With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished." [Emphasis mine]

More than anything else, it's that line that convinces me that the "wings" were just the "shadow" stretched out to either side - hence the greater darkness in the chamber:

"The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm."

Note that "its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom". The "but" is crucial here. Why would the fact that Gandalf could be seen be contrasted with the wings - unless the wings were just the extended darkness that surrounded the balrog?

Just thought I'd throw that in here!  

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

I hope it is OK posting a link to someone else's blog.  This is exactly what I am thinking about:

http://iron-mitten.blogspot.co.nz/2016_06_01_archive.html

Also, I am having second thoughts about using lots of added stats /characteristics for elves.  Really, DR is about simplicity and the easiest thing to do is use reduced figure units for Noldor and Sindar, although I would still give Noldor "Fear" making a single unit of foot cost 4+ 2 for fear and +2 for offensive for a total of 8.
Games would have to be played at 48 + points.

[jon_1066]

Re balrogs and Noldor kings.  The Noldor King would be at least as powerful as someone like Galadriel.  For first age battles there is somthing to he said for having a great disparity between the elves and orcs.  If that is done through boosting the elves or reducing the orcs or some combo of the two.

Eg orcs are light foot or worse with fearful.  Elves as heavy foot and elite foot with fear and I would suggest leaders have wizardling at least. 

The archers could be elite light missile with invisibility.

Balrog - elite foot with fear and wizardling (with the befuddle thee spell)

Trolls Bellicose foot with mystic armour

[guitarheroandy]

With reference to the figures mentioned earlier, it is my dearest wish that someone would produce a range of proper Dark Ages style 'High' Elves as hinted at in the Silmarilion - long mail hauberks, choice of round or long kite shield, spear or long sword armed... But most ranges either pander to GW WFB styles or LOTR movie styles or generic fantasy stereotype... *sigh*

[Vermis]

What unit type were the trolls, Ethelred? Offensive heavy foot?

Just thought I'd throw that in here!  

Spoilsport.  But, yeah, I've been wondering how one would sculpt a mini 'of man shape, but greater', all swathed in shadow.

I hope it is OK posting a link to someone else's blog.  This is exactly what I am thinking about:

http://iron-mitten.blogspot.co.nz/2016_06_01_archive.html

Oh yes.

With reference to the figures mentioned earlier, it is my dearest wish that someone would produce a range of proper Dark Ages style 'High' Elves as hinted at in the Silmarilion - long mail hauberks, choice of round or long kite shield, spear or long sword armed... But most ranges either pander to GW WFB styles or LOTR movie styles or generic fantasy stereotype... *sigh*

I know exactly what you mean, and I feel the same way.

Also, you remind of the trailer for the new King Arthur movie that I saw recently. And now I'm sad.

Jon: elite light missile?

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Played a quick game to try out some ideas.
I decided reduced figure units is the best way to go for elves.  All the extra rules might slow the game down and leave heroes with no juicy abilities.
Noldor were: 2x offensive heavy foot with fear (8 point units); 1x archers, mystic armour and fear (8 points - yes, I know fear isn't too useful for archers, but sometimes life is just that way; they are not sharp shooters as this is reserved for Sindar and Laiquendi); 1x "rangers" - elite foot, missiles, fear (10 points); a wizardling with one heavy infantry unit (2 points); hero - elite foot, venomous, fear (11 points). Total 47 points.

Orcs: 2x bellicose foot (8 points); 2 x skirmishers (4 points); 1x wargs, lesser warbeasts, cunning, fear (8 points); 1x trolls - lesser war beasts with terrifically shiny armour, fear, cunning (10 points); 3x light foot, offensive (15 points); 1x light foot with missiles (5 points).  Total 50 points (it was meant to be 48 points but part way through the game I added cunning to the trolls).

This gave the elves (really Saxons) 22 figures against 84 orcs (actually Vikings), 2 trolls and 4 wolves plus a warg for a total of 91 total bad guys, or 5 units against 10.

Elves won (just).  This seemed to give the right feel.
Clearly, with all the extras added on, a minimum of 40-48 points seems to be needed. 

[Sunjester]

Elthered: That sounds a great game, I'll be giving these ideas a try (when I can find my LOTR stuff after the house rebuilding has finished!).

This has been a great thread, once again I'm really enjoying it.

I wrote a piece on the army of Gondolin once, which was published in Practical Wargamer over 20 years ago. Unfortunately I never got the original notes and drawings back and I can't find my copy of the magazine!

[jon_1066]

...

Jon: elite light missile?

Sorry meant Sharp Shooter - was thinking of expert from Lion Rampant.

[Hobgoblin]

What unit type were the trolls, Ethelred? Offensive heavy foot?

Spoilsport.   But, yeah, I've been wondering how one would sculpt a mini 'of man shape, but greater', all swathed in shadow.

(Excuse the tangent!) I was thinking about this - how to do a Tolkienish balrog - and something occurred to me. What about one of the larger Goodwin or Copplestone wood elves - the war dancers or whatever they're called? I reckon a lightly clad, large (those elves are quite big, I think, and beefy with it), big-haired elf with the addition of a whip would make a pretty good balrog. The LotR balrog seems to be an agile, leaping creature. We know it has a mane, and we know its weapons, but that's about all we get.

I don't think I have any of those, but I might have a brief forage, just in case. If one of the dynamic, leaping ones were to receive a green-stuff and wire whip, and then had its skin painted jet black and its eyes, mane and sword painted fierily, I reckon it would very much look the part - especially against a "true 25 Gandalf".

The shadow, of course, remains a problem, though I imagine better painters who can do those light effects would have no problem in creating an aura of darkness via the base. I'd probably just paint most of the base as scorched or shaded, with occasional embers glowing through ...

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

A wingless Balrog?
Efreeti Emir, Reaper


Or a mighty winged Balrog?
A fire demon, also from Reaper.  This must be a large figure as it costs $22.

[MamlukRaider]

Hello great thread I noticed you said no one makes sword and board elve I just checked ral partha and they have chainmail clad elves in their fantasy armies section