Italian Wars - Pike and Shotte, second battle update 03/11/16

[olicana]

Well I've set it up and I've tried to come up with some things that tailor unit definitions to my own tastes (and beliefs). This I think, will be the test of P&S. If it copes with this, it might become my go to rule set for the Italian Wars (at the moment, at least ).

Link to set up, OOB and thoughts on unit definitions (plus pics of course):

http://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/a-second-italian-wars-battle-using-pike.html

[Hu Rhu]

I like your idea about the 'Cautious' rule.  It seems similar to the 'Evade' rule in Hail Caesar.  I will look forward to hearing how the game plays out and what other suggestions you put forward.  I am also interested in how the Colunela units perform and if you will be making any tweaks to their stats/characteristics.

[fred]

I'm interested to see how the Colunela units play out. Trying to get mixed melee/ shooting units right seems very hard in most game systems.

I wonder if it is because they can swap from shooting effectively to melee effectively without any penalty.

All your other suggestions seem perfectly sensible and should play out fine.

Why are you so opposed to blunders? They don't happen that much, but when they do it's usually to the amusement of all. And rarely has a cactastrophic impact on the game.

[jcspqr]

I had planned to model the colunela in the brigade make up, with 2 "unit's" of pike, 1 of sword and bucklermen, and 2-3 of shotte, as opposed to having one unit with all of constituate parts mixed together.  Admidtely this does produce a Colunela that is much bigger than the historical OB ranges of 1500 men or so (probably a better reflection of a tercio), but it does avoid the concern/confusion about mixed pick and shotte in the same "unit" issue.

[Corso]

Like Hu Rhu I like the cautious rule. And the crossbow rule - like bows you pay points for less effect. Maybe those who wrote and play tested the rules had in mind 17th century armies instead of 16th century ones. Still the crossbow could be used to devastating effect, as it happened during the siege of Malta in 1565 when the ottomans launched an assault during rain, thinking the defenders would fire at them due to damp powder and instead being hit by crossbow bolts!

[Melnibonean]

I'm with the rest with regards your Cautious rule. It could be equally applied to Dutch WSS units.

As for the Colunela, you could make it a regular shotte unit but give it the Swordsmen and Pike Company special rules. This may avoid having to make any other special rules regarding how the unit operates as well as making it too overpowered.

[olicana]

http://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/pike-and-shot-battle-report.html

Link (above) to report and more pics like this one:

[Codsticker]

Great stuff as usual.

To represent "Bad War", perhaps a combination of existing special rules would better represent the animosity between the mercenaries instead of the existing rule.

Also, have you seen Wargames Designs unit amendments for combined units of pike and shot? Although designed with the ECW in mind they might be of some use to you.

[fred]

Great looking game. Your pike units already look huge - and you want to add more figures.

Glad the rules worked - makes me want to give them another try.

[LCpl McDoom]

I love looking at your blog and always find it inspiring. I have also been especially interested to follow your comments on the P&S rules too. There are some aspects of those rules that I'm not quite sold on (e.g., saving throws, exactly as one of the respondents in your comments said) and I've also been following the 'colunela' progress too. And I like your 'Bad War' interpretation too - I would prefer a an enhanced resilience against a named opponent (the arch-rivals) instead of an increase in attacking power. The stubborn defence against the arch-rival is a subtle distinction that I think works well for the tone and character of this period.

Many thanks for the time you've taken to share this with us.
 

[olicana]

Thanks guys.

There are some aspects of those rules that I'm not quite sold on (e.g., saving throws, exactly as one of the respondents in your comments said)

I'm not a fan of the bucket of dice, or the bucket of saving dice.

Personally, as you will know from reading my blog, I'm a big fan of Piquets single opposed die roll using different value die (d4 through d20).

However, on the whole, P&S does seem to work.

[Codsticker]

I think if they had called it a Morale Roll instead of a Morale Save people would have less of a problem with it. 

[Hu Rhu]

I agree.  Given that the roll is to see how much stamina the unit has lost it seems to me that the roll is designed to see if the unit is still capable of fighting or has shot it's bolt. However it is expressed as a Morale Save.

Its all a question of Will and Cohesion.  Will is the ability of the unit to soak up punishment and still go on fighting (hence stamina), whilst Cohesion is the ability of a unit to fight effectively (i.e. not being Disordered).

That said I would prefer the title change to Stamina Roll but I can live with Morale Save.

[olicana]

I agree.  Given that the roll is to see how much stamina the unit has lost it seems to me that the roll is designed to see if the unit is still capable of fighting or has shot it's bolt. However it is expressed as a Morale Save.

Its all a question of Will and Cohesion.  Will is the ability of the unit to soak up punishment and still go on fighting (hence stamina), whilst Cohesion is the ability of a unit to fight effectively (i.e. not being Disordered).

That said I would prefer the title change to Stamina Roll but I can live with Morale Save.

It's funny, but I never really saw it as anything to do with morale because you use it to effect stamina. We all started using the rules here at the same time, only I had read them, and I only used the word 'save / saving roll'. Consequently, we have only ever seen the 'Break Test' as the morale element within the game. Looks like I've saved everyone here all manner of grief with my sloppy nomenclature.

'Stamina Roll' would have been better but I guess the developers started with the term 'morale save', it stuck in their heads, and they couldn't think of it in any other way. It's happened to me when devising rules: You start with one mechanism doing one thing, change it to a mechanism that does something else to similar effect but somehow the original nomenclature stays the same. It is probably so well established as a term that it would be very hard to change now. Ho hum.

Word of the day:

NOMENCLATURE

noun
the devising or choosing of names for things, especially in a science or other discipline.
"the Linnean system of zoological nomenclature"
the body or system of names used in a particular specialist field.
plural noun: nomenclatures
"the students found it hard to decipher the nomenclature of chemical compounds"
formal
the term or terms applied to someone or something.
"‘customers’ was preferred to the original nomenclature ‘passengers’"