The end and new beginnings of Dredd

[Ulfhednar]

It's good but in respect of it being finished it's not encouraging the rulebook is now free. Or maybe it is, the more people into it the more chance the figures have of coming back, the range was so big (and still growing) and pricey I doubt many have got everything from it they'd have liked, and if they've grabbed cheap stuff in the fire sale it just means they're even more invested.

Thanks for the link to Hydra, I thought I hadn't known about them, then I saw their Firefly Haylee and remembered I did find them, saw that & immediately ran away. I shall have a closer look, some of their figures look great.

[Ulfhednar]

The fire sale parasites and exploiters have started, Heroes of Mega City One box set is now on ebay BNIB on a buy now, £50.56 (for 6 figures). If I want a Judge Cals retinue box set, it'll cost me £45 (and only one box left anywhere). Already paid £40 a piece for 2 East Meg box sets, but have no hope of ever getting the East Meg reinforcements and so a Sov female or Sov PSI judge, or East Meg Judge with an anti-armour heavy weapon (rocket launcher), or indeed a Meg1 Judge with an anti-armour hvy weapon (Lazooka). It's getting depressing, I may give up and play Captain Scarlet instead. Or Infinity, they have some cool figures and it's no more expensive than this has become, in fact it's cheaper.

I don't get why they didn't prepare more stock to see the sale through (it was meant to run through November, as it was they were sold out before end of October, a lot was sold out before the sale even started). And not to make money (although they'd have made some) but to satisfy the (supposedly fellow) enthusiasts that had supported the game & range (not just in KS but overall) and to stop people getting ripped off, as it is they've just dumped it and run, left people who'd started to get involved and invest well short and in a mess.

BTW Warlord has the apes on bikes back in stock but their free post offer has just ended.

[mcfonz]

This is a visually driven hobby.
Dredd's universe has some prominent characters, as well as a fairly unique look and feel.

Like I said, to a degree. A lot of the random perps were pretty generic.

The most iconic characters you could struggle with finding accurate or passable alternatives but a the end of the day, Dredd is such a dynamic setting that you could introduce more or less anything to your games with a passable back story. Because Dredd often did itself.

Things like the fatties would be the hardest to find alternatives, and I accept that. But for things like bloc wars, gangs etc. You can literally more or less introduce anything you like.

[Ulfhednar]

^ Definitely, it's complete pulp fiction, it's why I decided to go with it, it makes a fantastic hub to pretty much any sci-fi gaming, each enemy force a different spoke, the spokes can fight against Meg1 Authorities or against one another (so it's not even restricted to Dredd / 2000AD), it's not restricted to only urban as there's Cursed Earth, fighting in ruins of Meg2 etc. ScotiaGrendal Void 1.1 Vasa marines make a great deputy force for the Banana City Judge (or some arch criminal like an Oola Blint figure), their Void 1.1 & Urban War Junkers (that someone pointed out earlier in the thread and great suggestion) would make a great neo-Roman force for the Vatican Judge, those could ally and fight Meg 1. Wargames Foundry's old citadel Sov Judges (that look uber evil) would make ace German Vril City Judges (led by Copplestones Hitler bot) who could be in an Axis with the Vatican and Banana City / Argentina, and fight Meg1 over the disputed Falklands (having discovered penguin oil is anti-ageing). Anything. Except, East Meg is the obvious enemy, although the range offered so much more than had previously been available, it was still threadbare for creating even a skirmish based wargaming force, and knackered without those East Meg reinforcements.

If this is the permanent end of the range / these figures, I think Mongoose & Warlord (or one or the other, don't know who's calling shots) needed to make more stock available to see it out, to help people complete what they got them to start and profited from them starting. It (and those people) have just been dumped, when Warlord announced their Dredd sale they didn't say anything about it being discontinued or even clearly state it wasn't being restocked, they claimed the sale was simply due to a Dredd or Dredd game anniversary.

edit - and found the robots were Junkers not Titans, they'd fit in great if I do a Vatican judge force which is likely, those Junkers are excellent and with decent variety, thanks :-) Too pretty / refined for East Meg though.

[Ulfhednar]

Altsain on ebay (Mongoose) have just put a load of different bundles of judges on cheap. (!!!) Not much quantity, will be gone fast...

[mcfonz]

If this is the permanent end of the range / these figures, I think Mongoose & Warlord (or one or the other, don't know who's calling shots) needed to make more stock available to see it out, to help people complete what they got them to start and profited from them starting.

That's not a good business model though is it? Produce more stock to supply a sale in which they are probably making minimal return. It's a sell off sale because their license is coming to an end. They don't want to be left with any stock because when it ends, they wont be able to sell it . . . . so they want to have as little as possible. For me, it just looks like they haven't been reordering more stock as it ran out, slowly. Then with levels relatively low they announced the sale. That is pretty typical of businesses drawing the line under a range throughout industries.

It (and those people) have just been dumped, when Warlord announced their Dredd sale they didn't say anything about it being discontinued or even clearly state it wasn't being restocked, they claimed the sale was simply due to a Dredd or Dredd game anniversary.

Well that's not the email I got from Mongoose which stated it was a sale due to the license coming to a close. But as already said, there is a business at hand and they can't lose money just to support the odd person that may still be taking their time to buy in 'hard'. Especially considering that this range has been around for quite some time now.

IMHO the only thing people can be frustrated with is that some of the models from the kickstarter will not be available now, outside of that kickstarter - they will not make it to retail.

It is frustrating, but whether they had announced the sale better or not those miniatures they had would have sold out quickly. Again, I suspect that before any sale came along they already had started to happily sell out of items in preparation for the end of the license. So, in turn even if they had told you or anyone else, you still would not have been satisfied with the availability of the range.

You just sort of have to take it as it is, as with any similar situation in any product industry. You have to look for the signs yourself. It's frustrating but it is also life.

I was not a point in my hobby where I was fully aware of Rackham when they were popular, relatively inexpensive and quite widely available. Having really found out about them not long before they disappeared. It's just one of those things you have to accept and that something similar will reappear in the future.

With Dredd, at least it is something that exists in terms of the comics etc and so that license will always be there for someone to pick up. And undoubtedly it will. And with any luck, improvements will be made.

No point fretting at this point until we know anything for sure.

[Ulfhednar]

Well yes, but this is supposed to be an enthusiasts thing. I think even uber self interested & grabbing GW would have given people a proper heads up before it was too late. It certainly wouldn't have cost them anything to have carried stock for the sale, they'd have still made something off it. Maybe a lot, I'd guess they've underestimated the demand as I think most would have sold out regardless, without much or even any discount at all, and just by people being informed it was their last chance. And yes I know the Kickstarter's have been informed which is good and only right, but there's only something like 350 of those, there are many more outside of that circle just as interested & to some degree invested (if I'd have known about the KS's, I'd have paid full wack at the start into both Dredd & Rogue Trooper). Outside of the KS's, no one was given a heads up at all, it's just crashed on them.

I'm just frustrated cuz I've missed critical blisters (that were probably sold out long before the sale cuz they're such obvious necessities). Won't get them now but did well in that last load Altsain put on ebay :-)

edit - and one of those Judges bundles Altsain put on ebay and is still available right now has the Accountancy Judge in that I never saw for sale ordinarily. And the Perp bundle has a hvy weapons punk I've also never seen for sale and that's a lighter colour likes it's only just been cast, maybe a spare from kickstarter they're only fulfilling now?

[mcfonz]

Well yes, but this is supposed to be an enthusiasts thing. I think even uber self interested & grabbing GW would have given people a proper heads up before it was too late.

Pretty sure that GW has removed items etc without any warning. Things like the terrain for WHFB when AoS came along . . . which they have brought some items back for temporarily, I guess when old stock was sent from the stores back to HQ. GW doesn't really have an early warning system, and nor would they want to take sales away from new products . . . . 

It certainly wouldn't have cost them anything to have carried stock for the sale, they'd have still made something off it.

Are you serious? The chances are some of the molds would need replacing (another reason they may have let some stock run out a while ago), metal, cost of time for the casting staff . . . . and they were selling at what, around 50% in some cases which is good even for a trader discount . . . . . and again, you completely ignored what I said before was about trying to avoid having an overstock.

Maybe a lot, I'd guess they've underestimated the demand as I think most would have sold out regardless, without much or even any discount at all, and just by people being informed it was their last chance. And yes I know the Kickstarter's have been informed which is good and only right, but there's only something like 350 of those, there are many more outside of that circle just as interested & to some degree invested (if I'd have known about the KS's, I'd have paid full wack at the start into both Dredd & Rogue Trooper). Outside of the KS's, no one was given a heads up at all, it's just crashed on them.

I'm just frustrated cuz I've missed critical blisters (that were probably sold out long before the sale cuz they're such obvious necessities). Won't get them now but did well in that last load Altsain put on ebay :-)

I don't wish to sound harsh, but I think you have over-estimated the popularity of the range. I was one of the 350 KS backers and backed for a single judge and I was disappointed with that. I planned to pledge more but was disappointed with what I saw in the KS. I know several in my immediate network of gamer buddies that were the same.

And just look at this thread. Plenty of Dredd love, but very, very, very few people genuinely that vocal about being bothered by this. You have many such as myself, who may have bought one or two had they been in the sale. But the fact that we hadn't bought them already speaks for itself really. Then you have a majority on this thread saying they are happy with alternative sources - and have been sourcing alternatives even though this range existed.

To me that says all you need to know. This has been far from a well handled license and not the best range of miniatures you will ever see for such a well known and well followed character and universe.

[Ulfhednar]

Well I spent a decade working at senior level in Marketing, and before that in logistics, and before that in off-set litho print with all the lead time issues, it still makes no sense to me that a sale that was supposed to run till end of November was so heavily discounted (and the range in such demand) it was sold out before end of October with people paying well over the normal list price to try and grab out of stock stuff that's popped up on ebay, it's just money been poured away and people left short. It's definitely not like anything has been so not wanted it's had to be returned, it's all selling like it's hot. If they'd managed the exit properly, for the sake of their customers, it would have more than wiped its face. And it prompts a big question of the game, or at least figure range, I think demand that's showing itself now as it threatens to disappear proves it has a decent future if they get it's exposure right, the demand is there. Apart from the fact it's Dredd and so is always going to have credibility and a market, it fits too well into all the modern urban skirmish games to be abandoned.

edit - re most people aren't into the range, I think there's probably a split between those still deeply immersed in the hobby (who'd have been most likely to hear about the kickstarter), who are balancing this against other ranges and making comparative judgements based on value, and a far larger population of middle aged Dredd fans who could get into this because it's exactly right for them (it has proper credibility and means something in a way most of the hobby doesn't), because they're getting to an age they're looking for hobbies and this would fit, but because it's so buried in the hobby, it's passed many of them by. You should see the volume of these middle aged people playing things like WOT's, looking for an interest and not really finding it.

And I think a lot of the figures are quality (though like anything could have been done better). They're like the old Runequest Citadel ones, delicate stylised fine art. Those Runequest figures were the last gasp of decent miniatures before Citadel went slotta and into chunky charactures, which was a large part of what made me lose interest. These figures got my interest back, I think Mongoose did a good job.

[mcfonz]

But there is no evidence of the quantity of the demand.

Items have sold out but we have no knowledge of the stock level prior to the sale. We don't know.

You are making a lot of assumptions that we won't know the answer to.

And you took my example of GW out of context. I was merely providing an example to disprove your point, not suggesting that Warlord were receiving stock back and selling it.

If you are well practiced in marketing and logistics as you say, then you'll know that demand spikes during sales because of the price. Much like any holiday sale period. People will often buy something they wouldn't have considered before due to the drastically reduced price.

What you are left with is essentially figures that just back that if something was cheaper more people may buy it. Plus you have to factor in that for some of those people, they did so with the knowledge that the product may not be available again. And that it may be some time before Dredd miniatures are seen in any form.

That is very different to saying that this range of products is a viable range to go forward with at this time.

But as I said before, they will have known the actual demand before the sale, and had the range been as popular as you are suggesting, they would have been in discussions for some time in advance of this situation and just kept producing the miniatures. As this does not seem to be the case (although again, no one can be sure) one can only assume that Warlord knew what they were doing and knew that there was nothing in it for them to produce extra product just to sell off cheaply.

I know of no other industry that does that. Usually sales are to win consumers over to the product, to help reduced overstocks of items - sometimes perishables or fashionable items that will no longer be popular.

[Ulfhednar]

I'm gauging things by how fast things have sold off on ebay and from stockists, and the bidding wars that have taken place on ebay. And it can't all be tipped off kickstarters, they have most if not all of the range already. And it has so much more potential cuz lots of the ancillary stuff crosses over into pulp gaming and would work there, if they'd listed stuff better (just like if they'd marketed the game wider, to the larger pulp gaming / interest market) so non informed had seen it too, I think it would have gone ever faster and for even more money.

edit - and in case it was missed, Altsain (Mongoose) on ebay has bundles with the Accountancy Judge in, and a Perp I've never even seen before and looks like a new cast.

edit - I do agree in that I think they had a problem with pricing all along. It conflicts, on one hand you only need a small volume of figures so they're higher price, but actually you need tons of figures to achieve freedom in the game. They needed to open it up to wargamers more, some cheaper unit builder packs and some volume deals, they needed to come up with more affordable scenery. On Dredd, Warlord seemed to propose it was £20 a building, you can get a whole Infinity sector for that. I think it was too exclusive & niche enthusiast for something that should have been much more mainstream. Maybe that's what the brand owner has realised and is thinking of going back to Citadel?

[mcfonz]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/judge-dredd-miniatures-game-block-war

649 KS backers.

Around half pledged $40 or less.

That itself doesn't include things like add-ons in the pledge manager etc. But I think your assumption that these people are not original KS backers trying to complete their collection or what they want for their collection could also be wrong.

You make so many assumptions - too many.

Now you are talking about marketing a sale better so that it could justify them producing more product for it?!! That's fine for an annual sale, but not an end of line sale. The whole point of an end of line sale is that it is the end of the line. The end of the production line. Discontinued etc.

[Ulfhednar]

I'm sure like the vast majority though I didn't even know about it, I'd never even heard of kickstarters before I came across the Rogue Trooper one a few weeks back when searching the net trying to work out where the Nort figures I'd happened to see a photo of were from. I think the majority of the market for 2000AD / Dredd left the gaming hobby a long time back, driven out by GW, driven into Total War and then things like WOT's. (They had a high point with Judge Dredd roleplaying & Call of Cthulhu, when that fell off a cliff into 40k steroid marines, griffen cavalry & Dwarvish helicopters people quit, it was getting dramatically younger as they were becoming adults). Fishing the existing hobbyists is just coal to Newcastle, it's no particular hook to them, but for those who dropped out because GW made it all about overblown caricatures fitted into their Harry Potter type nonsense world (their influence $$$$ed the LOTR's or at least Hobbit films), it's exactly the right hook to get them back into it. Reaching them is the problem but it shouldn't be, lots are finding the pulp fiction types games, lots still into Cthulhu - stuff that is fun, doesn't take itself too seriously but with real mature credibility, like Dredd.

edit - overall I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who'd left the hobby but has been hooked back into at least this much of it by this, which happened because the subject (and imo Mongoose's execution / style) has proper credibility like nothing had anymore when I quit it all. I really don't want to play a game and figures based on what some person at GW or wherever thinks is most wow, it's just made up nonsense trying too hard to be attractive and impressive. Dredd himself knows this, he's generation X, Sally4th seem to see this too, know their market, they only really sell pulp fiction gaming, and Dredd, they obviously cross over. But I'd guess Dredd stuff was just a bit too expensive and presented a bit too narrow for the amount it looked like you'd need to get for it to work, in comparison to the competing pulp fiction stuff.

Anyway, I don't mean to complain, these figures are still a massive positive for me (I'm definitely a fan of Mongoose's figures and that they made this happen in the first place), I don't know what's gone on for the range to go out of production like this, and even if it might still have a future already organised that we don't know about. I'm just frustrated that there's been such a scramble for what people still need from the range, it's left people short and I think it was unnecessary. But then I don't know what's happened behind the scenes, for all I know it's the Brand owner pulled the rug rather than Mongoose or Warlord just walking away and it was out of everyone's hands.

edit - re the figure you quoted I don't know if that's good or bad for kickstart quantity, but I think if more had known outside the immediate informed hobby it would have got a lot more support. But whatever it's great it happened at all and I'm impressed with Mongoose for a lot of it. I know some figures could be better but imo many are exactly right.

[Dags]

Thanks to everyone who's enquired about Judge Minty - thanks to LAFfer's generosity £60 has gone to CR today 

There are still some left but when they're gone that'll be it.

[Elk101]

I'd encourage any Dredd fan to get a Judge Minty, the figure is lovely.

On the topic figures I'm happy to use Warlord stuff with Citadel stuff,  a bit of Heresy,  Copplestone and Reaper too
 I'm sure there are other ranges in there too. I did really want a City Def set because I liked the look of the figures but as long as the feel of the figures works I'm not fussed about just using the 'official' figures. Some of them are really nice sculpts, others less so.