The end and new beginnings of Dredd

[Ulfhednar]

I disagree that your companies talents don't lie with metal miniatures (can't comment on resin kits as not been there yet), in that the end product is often something really special and has charm and character like figures used to have, when it was still an enthusiast thing before GW's flattened the gaming world with Space Marines and it all became much more mass produced & on the make. But then I only see the end product and appreciate that it's possibly a challenge making the miniatures side work and controlling it all like the rules side isn't.

But re you saying you need a miniatures game to sell miniatures, wargaming sells miniatures much more than roleplaying, why GW never did the Traveller competing Rogue Trader that they kept promising us and instead did 40k. Dredd has massive potential with wargaming (50 to 100 figs per side), Apocalypse / Block / MegaCiti Wars, & armies of cultists and zombies etc, I think it might have become the new cult wargame and done really well. The existing Dredd range you've achieved is an opportunity that I think must definitely be worth someone taking on, the width of the range is a fantastic foundation (of niche enthusiast things that are great to have, give the whole thing credibility but might not have been worth doing themselves as they're too roleplaying & enthusiast to deliver big sales), with a lot of the low hanging fruit like the wargaming aspect that I imagine can deliver big sales just waiting for a few more of the right figures to make it viable (to create balance between sides and variation to avoid duplication, to keep it looking real and stop it appearing like GW's mass produced stuff) and it's there for the taking.

[MongooseMatt]

I disagree that your companies talents don't lie with metal miniatures

Oh, we can do a good miniatures from time to time   We also have a rel passion for them. However, there is more to a miniatures business than that, and other companies just do it better. Both we and our customers are better off if we concentrate on games design and book production, and leave miniatures to our friends in other companies.

Dredd has massive potential with wargaming (50 to 100 figs per side), Apocalypse / Block / MegaCiti Wars, & armies of cultists and zombies etc, I think it might have become the new cult wargame and done really well.

The problem is that Dredd sits right in the Sci-fi Skirmish area - the most competitive area of miniatures gaming imaginable. People need a reason to not do (say) 40k, or Infinity, or Warmachine. For some, the fact that it is Dredd is enough. For others they need to be offered something else, and that is a Big Ask for sci-fi skirmish. If you push it up to 50-100 models a side, then you are going up against the Daddy of them all, 40k - and that is a whole new ball game.

That is just my perspective, of course. We'll see what happens next with Dredd.

[Ulfhednar]

Yes, I guess the charm & delicacy of the figures is a consequence of them being an enthusiast thing & so them not necessarily being efficiently designed / controlled, it has probably been more trouble for you than for another Company that generates figures just as their main product and without being too involved in any individual ones of them. Your figures really do remind me of the old Citadel Runequest figures, exquisite little things that were Citadel's artistic highpoint before GW's got efficient with 40k.

Re skirmish wargaming, I just think Dredd / 2000AD has it, by being urban / civil rather than military (that is too pretentious and pumped up, can't accommodate tongue in cheek and still be mature), with the hugely distinctive colourful uniforms. Meg1 v East Meg colours like a sci-fi Napoleonic French v Russians, the game feels like ACW in being civil and so a bit desperate giving it atmosphere, it has that spectacle element but instead of big units, individual figures or small units that you can to an extent roleplay as you wargame. As a spectacle it pops like I don't think other sci-fi can, cuz it's too realistic or busy or over the top). I think it has it all, best of all worlds like no other imagining really could have because they're either too serious, or too contrived & trying to be something they're not, I think Dredd is already naturally what it needs to be and doesn't need to try, just needs to open up a bit, get some practical depth rather than more enthusiast width and the right wargaming proposition to go with it. Maybe that's more Warlords world, I think they'd do much better with MegaCiti-Wars (that might lead in the pack) than they'll do with things like Konflikt 47 (that is just following the pack as another me-too).

edit - re below and the the larger UK population being locked into the older comic style Dredd that isn't as saleable (certainly in America) as the modern gritty film version, I agree, but I don't think the 2 co-existing is conflicting, rather I think they could co-exist and the older one give the new one heritage credibility. 60's camp TV Batman doesn't detract from the gritty dark comic version, if someone made those camp 60's figures, a different audience would buy them without it putting off those into the modern stuff, it would augment the modern stuff & make the whole thing bigger, not get in it's way. And I think keeping the older version of Dredd alive should be really important to Rebellion, they've absolutely wringed everything they can out of their traditional products in the comic and book market, ebay is awash with that stuff 2nd hand very cheap, this game and range must have significantly helped keep all that alive and relevant.

[robh]

People need a reason to not do (say) 40k, or Infinity, or Warmachine. For some, the fact that it is Dredd is enough. For others they need to be offered something else, and that is a Big Ask for sci-fi skirmish.

This is exactly right, Original Dredd has a very limited demographic who all relate back to the classic 2000AD era. The new movies and franchising are moving away from the look and feel (and satire) of the original and closer to the mainstream gritty sci-fi genre that everyone else is trying to create a market in.

A Paranoia game system would be great if you can make it as imbalanced and unpredictable as the RPG scenarios were. I can imagine it will be a hard one to do, probably impossible if you try and work within the constraints of existing "X points per side" forces and stale dice dependent mechanics.
Really interested to hear more about the ideas you have if it starts to come together (Security clearance permitting). I dropped out of the Kickstarter when it became clear it was not suitable for figure gaming but regret not staying around for at least the pdf releases to see where it has gone.

[mcfonz]

To contrast with Ulf, to me Dredd is far better off as a smaller skirmish game.

It never struck me to be an "army" sized game. As 40k has already been mentioned I think it's worth noting that GW themselves appear to be realising that smaller games are more popular, more appealing to more people and that for a long time they have been pushing in the opposite direction and alienating that part of the market as a result.

In regards to what you are saying about miniatures and coupled with your previous comments I may sound a tad harsh in agreeing with you. I think in some ways you suffered due to the fact that some of the range was outstanding and then this was used as a bench mark for the rest of the range.

When you are a company such as yourselves this may well be unnavoidable due to buying in different sculptors with different styles and experience levels. There are so many factors that I think many people are not aware of when it comes to trying to commission a range.

So at this point, with several growing players in the industry I think for licensed stuff it makes sense to team up with people.

[Ulfhednar]

When I say wargame, I really mean skirmish wargame with only 50 to 100 figures per side (maybe less, maybe only 30 to 50 per side, I'll see how it works), urban Stalingrad type warfare with lots of terrain to create mazes and to avoid too much line of sight, and with carnage a real potential so the numbers don't necessarily mean much unless you're careful and roleplay it out more. It was the unthinking, just plays out as you set it up big set battle stuff in 40k that originally put me off and caused me to leave the hobby as much as anything, it didn't work at this scale, before I gave it all up I did start to get into 6mm Epic for that exact reason. But ultimately I just don't believe in large scale sci-fi warfare, they'd use nano-tech, targeted tech and remote weapons of mass destruction, they definitely won't be having tanks with Imperial Guard tank crew stood in open hatches waving swords shouting charge, and batteries of barrage guns a few feet (inches) behind the front line. (I think Rogue Trooper would have got it much more right, that would have been great).

Dredd is perfect for sci-fi warfare (because it needs to be small scale and personal). The Dredd range has enough in Mega-City One forces to create a skirmish wargame force. Brit-Cit is getting there too, as allies or maybe even a stand alone (if you converted a holo-judge and maybe a tech & med judge to Brit Cit, and a Citi-Def). But there's not a viable enemy in the range to make an opposing bad-guy force (especially considering the casualties they'd suffer fighting Meg One Judges), brilliant though the figures are, there's too few East Meg, too few cultists, zombie hordes are an option but the zombie conversion pack is really only for expert modellers and still only offers 4 figures, etc.

Eg - I'd love to be able to create a small force for each of the Judges of the World, then I could mix it up endlessly with allies and enemies, in total freedom but the hugely distinctive and in tune with one another uniforms and crazy tech tying it all together visually. It's already doable with the Texas Judge using proxies for his posse of deputies (with various sci-fi cowboys and cowboy robots), Scotia Grendals Void 1.1 Vasa Marines would make a great camp deputy force to go with the Argentina Judge, Urban War Vasa sci-fi Romans would work with the Vatican Judge (and if they scale GW's Sisters of Battle would make great fighting nuns), Foundry's old Citadel Rogue Trader inquisition would make great Vril Cit judges (that I've decided is under the Antarctic) led by Hitler Bot and bent on taking over the World, that could include all sorts of alternate / sci-fi WW2 German figures etc. To me it looks like endless really colourful and characterful (and so hugely immersive and compelling) fun pulp fiction skirmish wargaming. And it bolts into other games, like Mars Attacks (or Aliens / Tyrannids etc) would make a great skirmish wargaming enemy for Meg 1 (or any of the Meg-Cities).

edit - the range does allow it if you just play urban Mega City One gang trouble, you could create a big enough force out of the Warlord Dredd punks, + using proxies, and allying them with the Apes and maybe robots. But imo there's so much potential in the Dredd world and with what Mongoose have already started in the range for it to be much more.

[Ulfhednar]

Re that unreleased Dredd figure I posted the picture of and some were maybe frustrated there weren't more. Received it today and it's a beautiful figure, delighted I got it but it's quite big, it's as tall and slightly bigger overall than the Judge Giant figure in the Heroes box set. I think it's still usable in game as a big Judge (just like Judge Giant is), and being such a good figure and big would be a fantastic painted display figure, but still I'm going to guess it was unreleased as it was slightly large & out of scale, and so some may not need to be as frustrated at not getting one? If I had to chose only one, the released Dredd in the Heroes box set is probably the better more usable figure. If this figure does ever get retailed I think it's definitely worth having, it's proper quality, just maybe not quite as useful as some other lead character figures that are already available / easier to get.

edit - it's about the same scale as the riot Judge with baton, but slightly bigger chested. So it's large but it does fit in and work, it is a beautiful figure and will look amazing painted, but it's not a perfect Judge Dredd (at least to game with) that people necessarily need to stress about not having. It is real quality though, easily good enough for retail so hopefully will get there one day.

[MongooseMatt]

delighted I got it but it's quite big, it's as tall and slightly bigger overall than the Judge Giant figure in the Heroes box set.

That is why it wasn't released. It was a model done without commission (Shane did quite a few models like that), but the scale was a smidgin off so it was used as a promo model at an event.

[Ulfhednar]

As a matter of interest, was there a Judge Koburn sculpted and ready to go if the licence had continued, so if someone were to take it on & retail it or some of it again, might Judge Koburn be something that could feasibly still come along retail later, or was that abandoned mid-development with the character not done so definitely won't happen?

It's just that I have the Judge Koburn Grav Bike (a really nice miniature), spare legs from all the different riders so that's ok but finding an upper half or more to the point a head to convert into a proper Judge Koburn is a thing. I assume he's based on James Koburn from Steiner in the film Iron Cross, and Warlord do do a decent Steiner head in fatigue cap in their WW2 German Bolt action spares. But it has no goggles and the cap is way wrong.

Then I found a cap with goggles that would work ok enough, but the head it's already on would work too, as Judge Koburness, which would be more fun and make it not a waste of time if a real Judge Koburn turns up one day. But if one definitely won't be coming along (within this range as far as what exists now) maybe I should stick with making him?

[MongooseMatt]

As a matter of interest, was there a Judge Koburn sculpted and ready to go if the licence had continued, so if someone were to take it on & retail it or some of it again, might Judge Koburn be something that could feasibly still come along retail later, or was that abandoned mid-development with the character not done so definitely won't happen?

No. It was on the list of things to do

The grav bike was originally going to be part of the biker gangs, but the sculpt was too close (read: exact) to Koburn's bike, so we pulled it to one side with the intention of doing him after the KS sculpts were done.

[bong-67]

Hi,
I've been following this thread with interest.  I'm a long-
time Dredd fan, going right back to his first appearence in 2000 AD prog 2.  Back in the 80's I both  played and GM'd the GW roleplaying game and really enjoyed it.  I've owned, painted, and sold both sets of the old Citadel Judges and the later Mongoose ones.  Back in the summer I went halves on a starter set for the JD miniatures game but put the project on a back burner.
The demise of the Mongoose/Warlord figures was a blow at first because I'd always hoped to do something with my Judge Dredd project but it galvanised me to get what figures I could while they were available.  I've got perps (from the starter set) and was able to source a set of East Meg Invasion Force, a Judge Cal Retinue and various other bits and bobs.  Judges I've been able to source from Foundry.  So I've got enough figures to game aspects of the Cursed Earth, The Day the Law Died, the Apocalypse War, and maybe Necropolis or Judgement Day.
I have to say that I'm very happy with the Mongoose/Warlord figures, they are very nicely done and very true to the spirit of the comic.  It's easy to critiscise Mongoose but they made a considerable achievement.  It isn't surprising that they didn't make much profit from Dredd as it is a niche and the licence granters could pull the strings any way they wanted.  We take for granted scores of figures based on copywrited characters, whether it's from companies producing "not"figures trying to fly under the radar and avoid cease and desist notices or companies paying for licences but suffering the cost to the point where they can't turn a profit.

[Ulfhednar]

Great, thanks for letting me know, I think skirmish gaming Justice Dept raids into Cursed Earth is my best bet to start with and Judge Koburn (or Koburness, it's tempting) would make a great Scout Judge. The grav bike is such an excellent model :-)

Btw in case anyone is interested, I've found good old Prince August do what looks like a small but very compatible range called Future Wars / Bitume, they seem to be having an overstock sale, and tonight (I guess being Irish & looking at America) are also having a 50% off Black Friday sale too, so there's some in the Future Wars range tonight (until 8am their time tomorrow morning) £1.08 per figure. Like a Police scientist who'd fit right into East Meg, and for £3.18 (reduced from £9.88) a bloke on a chair in front of a PC who'd work great or at least be a start for the one in the Dredd film with the bionic eyes, some cool citizens, and a Policeman on a bike, that looks like a child's bike compared to proper Lawmasters and could do for an Irish Judge on bike :-) And he's only £3.18! Don't trust the prices, some of the discount isn't applied till it's in basket so you have to test it out, could be less in basket than it's listing in catalogue.

Looking on the net the casts aren't too bad (though not great detail), in particular they have a cranky looking CyberCop / Justice Robot that works for £2.17, if it all scales, described as 28mm, probably not heroic but a couple of figures will do for some interest and cannon fodder. They have a female punk in exactly the right pads to be a perp or a cursed earth Judge. And shocktroopers that would do for Justice dept support troops or guards (but only 2, so it's probably diluting the uniforming without adding enough volume to be worth getting).

edit - re above post that I crossed without realising sorry to jump past, I agree, and I think it / Mongoose (doing it so right, as far as they went) does Rebellion and their larger opportunities such a favour, I'm inclined to think the licence should be free but granted to one company (like Mongoose) on image control conditions, and it be used to generate / maintain awareness and interest for properly big ambitions.

[robh]

...... proper Judge Koburn is a thing. I assume he's based on James Koburn from Steiner in the film Iron Cross........

Coburn yes, but originally from the character in 'Magnificent Seven'. Koburn was based on the wonderful Major Eazy from the old Battle comic (now also owned by Rebellion) an early character from Carlos Ezquerra.

[Ulfhednar]

Thanks for the info, despite being into the Dredd / 2000AD world I didn't actually read it much (I had dyslexia and stuff so didn't tend to read, my brother was well into it and is the expert on it), I just liked the pictures :-) And shiny free stickers.

The Koburn character definitely has a WW2 German field cap (with the button middle front holding up the side flaps) like Steiner wore, has German WW2 goggles, a Mauser style gun, the Justice eagles are small on his pads like the 3rd Reich Eagle, is behind enemy lines as it were in the Cursed Earth, overall he's very Steiner (but maybe with an Afrika Korp rather than Ostfront feel). I guess Steiner must have been part of the influence that went into that character originally, though I don't doubt that as you say the main & overall driving inspiration was Koburn in the Magnificent 7 (and probably just Koburn overall, cuz he was always the same kind of guy in every film he was in).

I think a Judge Koburness would be best to do rather than Koburn, an obviously alternate version then I don't have to worry if the pads etc are exactly right for Koburn in the comic. And I think he may still come along one day, if the party potentially interested in taking this range on is Warlord, if they see Koburn as Steiner (one of only a handful of WW2 German popular culture heroes, a figure they've apparently done on several occasions for Bolt Action & do already have a head sculpt for, though in 28mm true rather than heroic, but they're capable of it), if the Grav Bike sculpt is passed over, it may be something they'd really want to add to the range themselves. It's encouraging that a lot of sculpting was apparently outsourced of Mongoose, gives the potential that if it is taken on by someone else those same people could be commissioned again to do a bit more (though I guess not new types as there won't be the new rules for them.

edit - in fact someone at Warlord did a Judge Koburn conversion (in his Grav car), so it's apparently a character some there are conscious of and would like.

[monkeylite]

Coburn yes, but originally from the character in 'Magnificent Seven'. Koburn was based on the wonderful Major Eazy from the old Battle comic (now also owned by Rebellion) an early character from Carlos Ezquerra.

That's interesting, coz Easy was (to an extent) based on Coburn, too.