Schiltron in 28mm plastic?

[Tim Haslam]

Hi,

First question,
At what point did the Scottish switch from spears and shield to a full on pike Schiltron?

Second question,
Yup, loving metal, but I’d like to consider plastics with maybe conversions?
Spear and Shield Schiltron, so earlier period.

I’m wondering if something as weird as the Fireforge Amulghavars but with different heads?
Something from their earlier models in the Medieval range perhaps (although I’m not so keen on the earlier releases)

Maybe some Gripping Beast Dark Age Irish mixed in?

As you can see, it’s a bit of a bonkers idea 

[Iain R]

Not really one of these things with a nice clear cut date, I'm afraid.

The rise of the long spear, used two-handedly, was tied to the rise of cavalry and the increase in Anglo-Norman influence in Scotland, and you'd probably see it start to edge out as the more common infantry weapon by the end of the 1100s and into the 1200s. I'm not sure we have any extant records from wappinshaws that we can compare between year x and year y to get an exact date of when common men were expected to turn up with and without a shield. Also, there would probably be guys who'd still turn up with a shield (or smaller targe) even with the longer spear; as long as you had a spear of (roughly) the right length, I doubt the baillie, sheriff, or king really cared if you also had a shield.

That said, you'd probably find that for the far north and western seaboard, where cavalry were far less of a battlefield issue, the combination of shield and short spear probably hung around a lot longer. Grave slabs of Highland gentlemen show them with this equipment well into the 1300s, because their way of war was much different, and well suited to the use of such items.

[Tim Haslam]

Thanks.
That was what I thought would be said, and like you said, in more far flung places, who cares as long as it’s long and pointy!

What about my suggestions on plastics?

[Iain R]

What about my suggestions on plastics?

I'm probably the wrong person to ask here, as plastics aren't really something I pay much attention to.

The main thing to remember is that Scottish common foot didn't really look any different to any other north western European foot of equivalent rank. There may be minor differences in small details and styles of decoration of items, and some areas may see different influences than others, but largely you're looking at guys with a tin hat, some form of gambeson/akheton, leggings, spear, sword or long dirk or hand axe, possibly a shield as discussed, maybe a pair of stout gauntlets and perhaps some maille if they're that way minded and have the coin for it. Avoid figures wearing tabards/surcoats for the most part, and don't get carried away trying to mix in too much dark age stuff. Likewise bare legged and barefooted hordes are a bit of a falsehood.

[Tim Haslam]

Sounding good.
Thanks

[SJWi]

Tim, I'll leave it to others to comment on your timeline question. To be honest looking at the Fireforge range I don't think your idea works.  I don't think anyone produces plastics of what I assume is the late 13th/early 14th century period you are looking for.  Personally I'd stick to the rathe nice metal ranges that are available .

[Ogrob]

If you are not so keen on Fireforge you can wait for Victrix new medieval range. It looks to be early/mid 13th century.  Or the new/upcoming Baron's war range from Wargames Atlantic. 14th century is sadly missing plastics completely.

[Tim Haslam]

Thanks chaps.
Yeah spotted those new WA knights..

[WorkShy]

I've found the problem with all plastic kitbashes to produce pikemen is getting the pike held in both hands. Even the Perry plastics tend to have the pike held in just one hand.

If you don't want metal or don't want to wait for Victrix/WA, you could consider the Medbury resin ones
https://www.hammerline.co.uk/products/14th-century-scottish-pike-command-team-medbury-miniatures?_pos=1&_sid=64e5b231d&_ss=r
https://www.hammerline.co.uk/products/14th-century-scottish-pikemen-1-medbury-miniatures?_pos=7&_sid=64e5b231d&_ss=r
https://www.hammerline.co.uk/products/14th-century-scottish-pikemen-2-medbury-miniatures?_pos=9&_sid=64e5b231d&_ss=r
https://www.hammerline.co.uk/products/14th-century-scottish-pikemen-3-medbury-miniatures?_pos=8&_sid=64e5b231d&_ss=r

I wonder if these are too late though for what you want and too heavily armoured.

[SJWi]

The Medbury figures look lovely but seem just as pricey as metals.

[Thew2]

Finding suitable arms is likely to be an issue.  The Perry HYW French Infantry (https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product/ao-50-agincourt-french-infantry-1415-29/) have a reasonable number of long spears being wielded two handed, which could be useful.  I'm not sure how well they would match with fireforge bodies.  Are you completely wedded to the early scottish wars only?  If not the Perry French could work for later battles like Otterburn and Homildon Hill.

[macmod]

There’s someone on eBay who does the Medbury ones in metal

[Tim Haslam]

Thanks chaps.
Some good suggestions.
Love those printed sculpts.

[Tim Haslam]

Hi guys,

So I’ve done a bit more research.
My conclusion, , still no idea! 

I’m thinking ancient authors are mixing up pike and long spear, and also the use of a long spear. For example you could (if you wanted) wield your long spear in two hands, similar to a pike. Or just use it in one hand.

So for around 1300, I’m going to go with long spear and shield, buuuuut model some spears held in two hands, just not as long as a pike.

Plus on actual model advice,
I’m going to wait and see how these 5 forthcoming plastic sets from WA look like. I’ll probably get enough from that lot alone.

WA are getting better and better.
I just got the Roman civilian set and it’s really good.

[Dice Roller]

This is the constant problem gamers face - we just want things to be so precise.
To the modern mindset, and it's particularly prevalent in gamers for one reason or another, we like things to be clear cut, categorised, and clearly defined.
To our minds, a long spear is different to a pike.
But to the medieval mind, where they didn't have dictionaries to create set definitions, they were more flexible with language. They would often have several words all describing the same item.
I doubt they would have drawn a distinction between a long spear and a pike. It would have been the same item - a long pole with a spike (which is what the word 'pike' is actually used for - to describe the pointed end and is still used for the same in the word pickaxe).
So don't get too tied up on whether they should be long spear or pike armed. The words would have been used to describe the same item. So make it what you want.

As an aside, I've never been entirely convinced the common soldier would have been equipped with a shield. Who, exactly, is meant to be issuing those shields? I doubt the local lord is going to have a supply of shields, and I also doubt the local levy are going to have one on standby. It's unlikely a shield would survive an exchange of blows (one of the reasons very few survive) and what did survive would probably find itself being used as fuel for the hearth. No. Just not that convinced the hoi polloi would actually have them. By the late 13th/early 14th century shields had reduced in size and were little more than vehicles for a knight's coat of arms. That was their main purpose by then. Just a hobby horse of mine. Feel free to ignore it.