The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Modhail]

Oh dear, I hadn't thought of GW Legal waking up again to have another swing at the IP-pinata over this... That would indeed be bad. On the other hand, maybe the Chapterhouse case has made them more careful, if not sensible.

[OSHIROmodels]

Box sets?

Blurgh, I'll pass 

Probably limited in number as well... Several times...

[Gibby]

To be honest the notion of GW's support gets my goat as well. Yeah, it should be brilliant. But I've told people, long before this announcement, that they're already 'supported' - just not by GW. Dim Reaper mentions Yaktribe. I've watched folk at the Tactical Command forum, and to an extent the Conclave and Specialist Arms forums, pick up the 'living rulebook' downloads for other SGS - Epic: A, Inquisitor and Warmaster; keep them up and available; even find tune them and write lists for them to a pretty disciplined degree.

Minis are more problematic, but I've seen five businesses pop up: fans providing 6mm sci-fi proxies since Epic was dumped, gradually building up a decent catalogue with what they were limited to; not to mention Shapeways shops for minis and conversion parts, and private creations. Have you heard the story of when a guy turned up on the TacComm forum with almost spot-on range of 6mm Necrons that he'd sculpted, that forum members persuaded him should be offered to FW via a contact on the forum, and that ended up as 'Edenites' in the Exodus Wars range? FW didn't want 'em, and GW didn't care that Steel Crown sold Necrons in all but name. It all ended up done by fans, for fans.

Overall, I've watched fans pick up the SGs from where GW dropped them, watched the fans support them and make them their own. It wasn't good enough for folk who didn't like their games without an official stamp, who thought that only GW was capable or deserving of providing support; but I thought it was an almost heroic effort - is an almost heroic effort - and I honestly regret not doing something about it myself.

At the moment I think too much time and water has passed, making Dim's prediction too plausible for comfort: a reason to get a few cash injections (I hear AoS is not doing as well as hoped) and bring the IP hammer down on a bunch of little guys. And another sad thing is that a lot of old SG fans won't care, because they're getting their officially-stamped one-off box sets.

If this turns out good for any 'little guys', it's the ebay scalpers.

Alright, perhaps I phrased it wrongly because I am fully aware that the fans have carried on the SG magic with the efforts you talk about, and I have a lot of PDFs of rules and fan supplements, as well as bookmarks to many of the companies who sell Not-X miniatures.

 What I was getting at was that it might be nice to see GW acknowledge many of these old games again. New, nice figures (hopefully) and heck, even a few Game in a Box releases would be welcome. Their latest Horus Heresy game looks very nice and doesn't appear to be limited edition, so yeah, I would be interested to see a new Blood Bowl, even though I have the old boxed game and several customised teams, and several incarnations of the living rulebook. I would be happy to see a BFG game in a box, given how much it would cost to get two fleets off eBay right now.

The sad truth is that their IP is theirs to protect. Given that they have licenced a lot of SG stuff out to computer games I think their intention is to cash in, and why not, on the excitement generated from those. I myself have not got too excited about the Battlefield Gothic computer game, knowing how much it would make me want to play the tabletop (because impressionable), so if there was a boxed game of it to get stuck into then great!

We have nothing but a vague announcement yet so it is worth watching and seeing what comes of it.

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, I forsee that either GW re-issue the old boxed sets along with some limited support boxes (all stuff released in plastic), or they release a standalone boxed set for a game in the style of the recent Space Hulk. It seems unlikely that they will make the various full armies/gangs/warbands/fleets for each game in plastic though, and less likely in metal or failcast.

In either instance, I can't help but feel this is a desperate move on GW's part, and I wonder how long their promise will last.

I mean, they ditched the parts-ordering service (promising it would return in a re-vamped way soon, which it didn't), and then ditched all the supplemental content on their website (which they now sell you at silly prices via iTunes - how to paint a Space Marine in blue/red/green/pink, etc), and ditched all their non-core games (because having sidelined them, ruined the miniatures lines with poor amateur sculpts and casting, jacked up the prices to silly levels, and refusing to support them with plastic sprues or model availability doomed them to ignominy first and their demise second).

The funny thing is, GW are in a strange and enviable market position that in any other market sector would have seen them absolutely wipe the floor with most of their competition; and yet, they cannot seem to increase their profitability due to their inability to listen to or understand their customers' concerns, and gradually lose market share year on year. It's really baffling that they can't see that, but we've discussed it before and so I'll leave that comment there.

A fancy modern and updated version of their old games (Necromunda, Mordheim, and Epic in particular) would certainly fly off the shelves I reckon, and so although I am curious (and even, I admit, cautiously hopeful), I have set my expectations low and will wait and see what comes.

[Tactalvanic]

Boxed sets over the next "few years" yeah that sounds like support

Of course that means in a "few years" they will have a larger pool of "limited edition" boxed set games to select from rather than having to re-do Space Hulk every time. So Space Hulk limited edition never to be seen again releases will maybe less frequent.

Either way they clearly say its a re-imagining and over the next few years, so I don't see support there, just name and IP retention, as mentioned by brighter people than me already. In more detail.

Expectations set to disappoinment level and returning to wait and see mode.

[Rhoderic]

To be honest the notion of GW's support gets my goat as well. Yeah, it should be brilliant. But I've told people, long before this announcement, that they're already 'supported' - just not by GW. Dim Reaper mentions Yaktribe. I've watched folk at the Tactical Command forum, and to an extent the Conclave and Specialist Arms forums, pick up the 'living rulebook' downloads for other SGS - Epic: A, Inquisitor and Warmaster; keep them up and available; even find tune them and write lists for them to a pretty disciplined degree.

Minis are more problematic, but I've seen five businesses pop up: fans providing 6mm sci-fi proxies since Epic was dumped, gradually building up a decent catalogue with what they were limited to; not to mention Shapeways shops for minis and conversion parts, and private creations. Have you heard the story of when a guy turned up on the TacComm forum with almost spot-on range of 6mm Necrons that he'd sculpted, that forum members persuaded him should be offered to FW via a contact on the forum, and that ended up as 'Edenites' in the Exodus Wars range? FW didn't want 'em, and GW didn't care that Steel Crown sold Necrons in all but name. It all ended up done by fans, for fans.

Overall, I've watched fans pick up the SGs from where GW dropped them, watched the fans support them and make them their own. It wasn't good enough for folk who didn't like their games without an official stamp, who thought that only GW was capable or deserving of providing support; but I thought it was an almost heroic effort - is an almost heroic effort - and I honestly regret not doing something about it myself.

At the moment I think too much time and water has passed, making Dim's prediction too plausible for comfort: a reason to get a few cash injections (I hear AoS is not doing as well as hoped) and bring the IP hammer down on a bunch of little guys. And another sad thing is that a lot of old SG fans won't care, because they're getting their officially-stamped one-off box sets.

If this turns out good for any 'little guys', it's the ebay scalpers.

Seeing as I recently spoke in another thread of Necromunda being irrelevant because it's "dead on the industry side", I feel I need to address this.

The companies stepping in to make unofficial miniatures for the SGs are indeed doing a heroic effort, and I'll gladly play/collect any and all SGs that catch my fancy with any miniatures suitable to that end, official or not. It's just that some miniatures are not available, even from third-party manufacturers.

I'd love to have a Ratskin gang more than anything else SG-related. They don't have to be GW rubber-stamped Ratskins, they just have to be Ratskins.

Could all the SG miniatures I want become available from third-party manufacturers if I give it long enough? Maybe, but I can't in good conscience cheer these companies on as they sail so close to the wind in regard to IP. That's not because I feel any sympathy toward GW and its IP struggles (I don't), but simply because making unofficial SG miniatures might be a gamble due to C&D umbrage, and I shouldn't be encouraging other people to gamble their money just so I can have what I want.

So, I'm sad to say that when I look at the SG games, I do it with some melancholy, never being entirely sure whether they're quite as much alive today as they were back when GW was less cynical and still supported the games its own self.

[Nord]

Sounds to me they make cash from most boxsets (Dark Vengeance, Space Hulk, Calth, let's just forget landfill Dreadfleet). Their number one concern is making money, so make more boxsets. Note that they are standalone boxsets, support in this case means a one-off boxed game (with hopefully a nice set of minis at "affordable" prices). They may put the old living rulebooks back online, but if anybody expects a new era of FAQs and ongoing development, I would be amazed if this happens. Where's the cash return in getting somebody to update rulebooks? Also, who would do it, apart from Jervis and Phil Kelly, all the other developers are long gone? In the last couple of annual reports GW have gone to great lengths to explain that they are a model company - they have played down the games so much - even started rebranded their shops to remove "Game" from their title.

It takes a lot to rebuild trust once lost, and GW lost mine a few years ago. There are so many alternatives around, in game terms these are invariably better. In model terms, there it's personal taste, but I still pick up the odd GW box because they still can show the world how it's done and when contained in a boxset it can work out "affordable". None of the specialist games ever appealed to me, but I can see folks being excited by it so I hope it works out for you. But I think you can expect a wait of several years, and then a one-off game, then very little else.

Strangest thing for me is this. GW pulled the plug on WHFB because it was only generating 10 - 15 % of their revenue (figure a guess based on previous annual reports). Now they are bringing back (reportedly) loss-making Specialist Games. For me, and you can call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, this is a knee-jerk reaction to the abysmal performance of Age of Sigmar. It has bombed, big time, and suddenly GW are staring down the barrel of a 15% revenue drop and a massive fan backlash. The new golden goose has turned out to be a turkey, and they are looking at a replacement, before they really do turn into SpaceMarineWorkshop.

[harleyface]

Dreadfleet could be a good example how they will convert games to one box games.
Manowar/Dreadfleet

[Tactalvanic]

The new golden goose has turned out to be a turkey, and they are looking at a replacement, before they really do turn into SpaceMarineWorkshop.

But on the bright side if it is a Turkey, at least it's just in time for Christmas!

[beefcake]

Dreadfleet could be a good example how they will convert games to one box games.
Manowar/Dreadfleet

"Good"    I take it by good, you mean bad 

[harleyface]

A good example...not a good game

[YPU]

A good example...not a good game

A good example of a bad conversion.

[Momotaro]

I've long ragged on GW for their peculiar mixture of corporate incompetence, malevolence, arrogance... and very nice toy soldiers.  But this is a decent idea. 

Base boxed sets with massive standalone playability followed by a range (some would say tiidal wave) of expansions has been a winner for Fantasy Flight, and is arguably a business model that GW themselves perfected.  GW are great at filling boxed sets, but hobbled themselves with their attachment to their "codex/creep" business model.  Betrayal at Calth has changed that - playable game in a box, use the figures with our other games.

So  interesting times - will wait and see what comes out. 

[Nord]

Except there's no real crossover with the specialist games. What other games do you use an Epic fleet with, a blood bowl team, a Man o War fleet? Admittedly you could potentially use Mordheim figures with WHFB, oh wait.......

[FionaWhite]

Betrayal at Calth has changed that - playable game in a box, use the figures with our other games.

I heard it mentioned that's not even a limited edition. Have I stumbled into some alternate reality or what?