The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Vermis]

Like I was badly hinting at, I dunno about Mordheim being an 'historical' game - it seems that they don't want to acknowledge their 'history' anymore.

Everybody else has been stealing stuff from GW for years.

Turnabout is fair play or as we used to say in the not so PC world... Payback's a bitch.

Yup.

Especially when they stole their concepts in the first place.

[Modhail]

It'd add in a way to get the gritty, human level fluff we need for AoS,...

Oh yes, this would be good. The main reason AoS failed to appeal to me so far is the focus so far on Superhuman (gold flavour) vs Superhuman (red flavour) conflict. I miss the human measure, the angst and pathos of regular folk (human or otherwise) trying to survive in a world full of nightmare fuel that the Old World had. Hopefully in time it will return.

[nullBolt]

Just quoting myself due to narcissism:

Does anyone else feel that part of the issue with 40k is that the game has started to go towards much more mechanised combat than infantry? It's probably been that way for awhile (I've been away for a long, long time) but I just don't like how it's been taken away from Space Marines (and their enemies) doing bad arse things and has became "Land Raider moves forward, disgorges a bunch of marines and then kills everything". It takes away a lot of the fun of the game when the things doing the best work are mechanical and not my empathetic units.

Nevermind the fact that they just don't feel at all suited to the scale of the game. 28mm does not lend itself to a lot of big pieces on the board.

It's also part of the contributor to points creep. More points to fit in more big things which takes away from the feeling of "being on the ground".

Space Marines = Very good.
Dreadnoughts = Good.
Rhinos = One per army, at the most.
Landraiders = For fuck's sake, just play Apocalypse.

Oh, well, I guess Infinity exists. I'll start playing that and see if I can't convert a few people. Either that or Kill Team.

Okay, borrowing the concept.

I guess a form of copying, which is what other manufacturers having been done for years with GW concepts... if you want to be nice.

Look at the Rick Priestley interview, though. Even he admits they lifted the Imperium of Man and it's history pretty much wholesale from Dune.

Indeed, like many folks I dabbled in 40K as well, but what I walked away from that experience was feeling that really the only way they could hook me was to do it in 18mm.

THAT I would freak out on. But pretty sure it won't happen though.

I'd like skirmish level 40k at the current scale and the current 40k at a much smaller scale. That'd be amazing.

[nic-e]

Oh yes, this would be good. The main reason AoS failed to appeal to me so far is the focus so far on Superhuman (gold flavour) vs Superhuman (red flavour) conflict. I miss the human measure, the angst and pathos of regular folk (human or otherwise) trying to survive in a world full of nightmare fuel that the Old World had. Hopefully in time it will return.

I read the first AoS novel when it was released (i got caught up in the hype, and i liked the rules.) and it did focus on them, and it was great! for about a chapter...
After that it was all thunder and muscle, but what i really wanted was more about the survivors from the sart.Who were they? how had they survived so long? how long have they been running? do they worship chaos? what have they had to do to get this far?
a shame, i would have much preferred it if the book had had the stormcasts show up RIGHT at the end to whoop ass and save the last humans.

[Elbows]

40K became a rather absurd arms race a long time ago.  I had a 12 year old kid show up with a Baneblade tank as his only force for a Thursday night bring-n-battle at the local GW shop.  No one else would play him, so I did and threw a singing spear, almost destroying the tank.

But, big kits = big money = big profit?  I remember I hadn't been to a gaming convention in years and I went to one where a 40K tournament was being held.  4'x4' and 6'x4' tables for the tournament.  Not a single table didn't have an obscenely large flier (or two) on the table - something that's borderline inexcusable in a 28mm game.  Unless you're landing a transport on the board somehow...why?  Why have a huge ship which would fly past at 300+ kph?  Because big model = big money.

Same thing with people bringings knights and titans to bear on a silly 6'x4' board.    But I saw plenty of tank companies in 3rd edition, so I guess reality and sense was never a high priority as long as people would buy huge expensive kits.  Like many folks, I'd be more than happy to see an occasional dreadnought, a couple of transports, maybe one main battle tank, and mostly infantry.  Fits the scale much better, but that's irrelevant to the game.

[Rhoderic]

Okay, borrowing the concept.

I guess a form of copying, which is what other manufacturers having been done for years with GW concepts... if you want to be nice.

No, seriously, I'm not sure what this conversation is anymore. If you mean it would be copying or borrowing/stealing from Frostgrave, then I didn't mean it like that. I meant it as in returning to the old, simple, sincere "roots" of fantasy storytelling / gaming, when not every fantasy story had to be set in a well-defined world full of well-defined nations, cultures, languages, cities, tribes and so on, all informed by well-defined geography and a well-defined world history. There only needs to be a location with some specific mood or atmosphere about it, some action or intrigue happening in that location, some half-defined immediate surroundings, and some vague notion of an "outside world" (that need never be crystallised by way of maps, chronicles or gazetteers) from which people, things and information may come in to the location, providing inspiring hints of what lies beyond, but only that. Think Gormenghast. It's been a growing trend in fantasy games lately (especially RPGs, see for instance Symbaroum) but to take that route doesn't mean to steal other people's ideas. Quite the contrary, it's a return to something more basal and primal. I do enjoy great works of world-building, but I also enjoy small, self-contained settings.

In the case of Mordheim, it need only be this: In some misty enclave of our fantasies, there is a ruined city. A dark, mad place surrounded by creepy forests. They say a comet hit it. There's treasure. There's people coming from all around to fight over that treasure (oh cool, some of them look like renaissance Germans! I wonder what that's all about... ooh and there's evil ratmen! And vampires and some kind of daemon worshippers! That's neat!). That's all we need to know. Let's go have an adventure!

The only reason I'm doubtful GW would go that route is that the notion doesn't feel characteristic of them. Historically, they like their game settings nailed down in place. Encouraging customers to use their imagination is not really in the shareholders' best interests.

[Rhoderic]

By the way, 15-18mm 40K with a proper, exhaustive range of miniatures? Yes please!

I have a small 15-18mm Ion Age project on the side, which has a very similar flavour to 40K, but I fiercely miss the Eldar and Orks, and on a meta-level the space knights of Ion Age ultimately don't have the iconic superstar "wow factor" of 40K Space Marines.

[Cubs]

The only reason I'm doubtful GW would go that route is that the notion doesn't feel characteristic of them.

That's why I think Mordheim was so damn popular, so damn quickly. It was a brilliant concept and (apparently) so innovative, completely contrary to the way the company seemed to be steering things. It had everything, small and (relatively) affordable forces that people could enjoy on the board, but importantly, they could invest their time, money and imaginations into between games. The planning and the back-and-forth of spending points was a hobby in itself.

[Rhoderic]

That's why I think Mordheim was so damn popular, so damn quickly. It was a brilliant concept and (apparently) so innovative, completely contrary to the way the company seemed to be steering things. It had everything, small and (relatively) affordable forces that people could enjoy on the board, but importantly, they could invest their time, money and imaginations into between games. The planning and the back-and-forth of spending points was a hobby in itself.

Sadly, according to the Priestley interview, that seems to have been around the time GW management came to be convinced that the inherent difficulties of the French, Spanish and Italian markets made the SGs too risky a venture for them. I do wonder if maybe Priestley was exaggerating and/or oversimplifying that bit, but the way the interview makes it out, persistent overproduction of foreign-language versions really was the reason GW decided it didn't want to be in the business of Specialist Games anymore.

Gorkamorka seems to have been the biggest culprit, but I assume it took a few more years after that for the thought to really crystallise in their minds.

[beefcake]

Mordheim was set in the past of the Warhammer world wasn't it? No need to change anything there. Now it's in the past of the bubble worlds.

[Major_Gilbear]

I meant the starter box plastics...the metals were absolutely fine.   

Okay, I agree then - carry on! 

Why not?

Everybody else has been stealing stuff from GW for years.

Turnabout is fair play or as we used to say in the not so PC world... Payback's a bitch.

Okay, borrowing the concept.

I guess a form of copying, which is what other manufacturers having been done for years with GW concepts... if you want to be nice.

Funny how when GW stole borrowed from others' ideas that was okay, but when others do it to GW suddenly you get as defensive as they do.

Hell, they claim proudly to do no market research, and yet they'll happily use other companies' store locations to decide where to put their own stores - second-hand market research on a global scale! 

Personally, I think GW has gone really stale, and I'm not just talking about the axing of WHFB. To turn this around it's clear they need to borrow ideas from elsewhere again, as their own creative talent clearly isn't up to thinking imaginatively for themselves.

Does anyone else feel that part of the issue with 40k is that the game has started to go towards much more mechanised combat than infantry? It's probably been that way for awhile (I've been away for a long, long time) but I just don't like how it's been taken away from Space Marines (and their enemies) doing bad arse things and has became "Land Raider moves forward, disgorges a bunch of marines and then kills everything". It takes away a lot of the fun of the game when the things doing the best work are mechanical and not my empathetic units.

Been that way for a long time.

RT = no real official vehicles until walkers and Rhinos and Land Raiders came along rather later via supplements.

2E = small vehicles common, towards the end -when IG Codex is released- the rules for making a preliminary bombardment come about (thereby giving a reason to have plenty of tanks).

3E = Rhino Rush skews the game badly.

4E = Introduces the Land Raider Crusader, and the Armoured Company. Also, vehicle-mounted twin-linked assault cannons are a fashion.

5E = Infamous "Leafblower" list ruins people's days. Melta weapons and lascannons are the best thing ever in all lists that expect to win.

6E = Flyers are now the must-have item for all armies. Thanks to a poorly-thought-out FAQ ruling, the Chaos Helldrake basically becomes a must-have model in every Chaos list (ideally two or more - as many as you can fit basically).

7E = Giant vehicles are now a normal part of the game.

Oh, well, I guess Infinity exists. I'll start playing that and see if I can't convert a few people. Either that or Kill Team.

Infinity is fun, but has a lot of rules to learn. However, it doesn't cost a lot to get started (basically free if you proxy the models to begin with and already have plenty of terrain). Just be aware that a lot of the game's balance comes from understanding the game and planning/acting accordingly - there is therefore a fairly steep learning curve until you get the hang of this.

Kill Team... Maybe. Looks like a fun distraction for a few games, but I doubt it has enough to hold up in the longer-term. Plus, you still need a load of GW publications in order to get access to the units and equipment, so it's pretty convoluted for what it is.

Sadly, according to the Priestley interview, that seems to have been around the time GW management came to be convinced that the inherent difficulties of the French, Spanish and Italian markets made the SGs too risky a venture for them.

That's less of a problem now that they can release electronic versions of rulebooks. Sure, there's still a translation cost, but at least you don't end up with huge unsold print runs.

I do wonder if maybe Priestley was exaggerating and/or oversimplifying that bit, but the way the interview makes it out, persistent overproduction of foreign-language versions really was the reason GW decided it didn't want to be in the business of Specialist Games anymore.

Gorkamorka seems to have been the biggest culprit, but I assume it took a few more years after that for the thought to really crystallise in their minds.

Of course he was - rarely is anything like that down to one single simple factor. However, it doesn't mean that his statement wasn't pretty much a description of the major basis of that decision.

I know that some activities and hobbies are more prevalent in some countries than others though (for all sorts of cultural and local reasons), and I suspect that not understanding that probably led GW to make some mistakes. At the same time though, if you don't provide a local-language version of a game, it is very difficult to break into the market there (especially with the non-Sterling prices charged there for their products...).

Specialist games made that problem more exaggerated in many ways, because they provided cheap self-contained games that all needed a fair amount of logistics to support, but which didn't net GW enough sales to sustain them in those countries. At least, not like the sales that WHFB and 40K demanded in order to play them. GM was the worst example in many ways as one Ork gang was all you ever really needed (at least Necromunda had different House gangs and lots of different weapons), and you couldn't even sell those players any terrain either.

The planning and the back-and-forth of spending points was a hobby in itself.

Very true.

Although it could be tedious to have a whole second meta-game of list-building (especially if you just want to play a quick, fun, fair game), it was a big part of GW's games. It also provided a structure for players to plan what they wanted to buy and model next for their forces.

I actually think this is one of the really key things that people feel sorely about in AoS - that this part of the game has been totally removed.

I'm not so sure. Mordheim has always been set in the "past" of the Warhammer world/mythos/legendarium/continuum/multiverse (what are we supposed to call it now??). Now it's just thousands of years further in the past. Even without Sigmarines, the figures for Mordheim should still be able to work double-duty for AoS, shouldn't they?

GW already licence the computer game version of Mordheim, and that hasn't changed the setting. If the plan is to provide a transition game from the PC to GW's other games, then I can't see them changing the setting for the tabletop version either.

Models-wise, they can produce a Skaven sprue (which will then provide AoS Skaven figures to replace the last lot of Mordheim Skaven that at the time then became WHFB figures), and maybe do the same for the Human sprue too.

I'd like skirmish level 40k at the current scale and the current 40k at a much smaller scale. That'd be amazing.

That'd be 40k 2E and Epic respectively!

[Mason]

Infinity is fun, but has a lot of rules to learn. However, it doesn't cost a lot to get started (basically free if you proxy the models to begin with and already have plenty of terrain). Just be aware that a lot of the game's balance comes from understanding the game and planning/acting accordingly - there is therefore a fairly steep learning curve until you get the hang of this.

Kill Team... Maybe. Looks like a fun distraction for a few games, but I doubt it has enough to hold up in the longer-term. Plus, you still need a load of GW publications in order to get access to the units and equipment, so it's pretty convoluted for what it is.

OR...

Inquisimunda, which is basically Necromunda modified as much as you like with house rules.
Some of our group have been giving that a go and it has been much more fun.
10 or so figures a side where each one 'counts' and you really notice its loss.

With the rumoured re-release of 'Munda, this concept may grow even more.
Which would suit me fine as it is the sort of skirmish game that I prefer.
 

[jon_1066]

The main problem I have with GW is that their flagship game is totally uninteresting to play.  As a game it is very much showing its age.  The decision points within the game are so few and far apart that it has principally become all about the meta-game.  That is the game is mostly played out in selecting your force and once they hit the table you see how it did and tweak your list accordingly.  ie most of the meaningful decisions are made before and after the battle. 

Looking at battle reports written for it don't give any kind of "believable" narrative either so it also lacks in playing out a story as well.  Compare it to a write up for a Chain of Command game.  A game like that can't help but be written up in a narrative style since the game play gives that kind of action.

I think this is also why there was such a backlash against AoS.  If most of the decisions in WFB were in list building then what happens to the game if it doesn't have any army lists?

[nullBolt]

The main problem I have with GW is that their flagship game is totally uninteresting to play.  As a game it is very much showing its age.  The decision points within the game are so few and far apart that it has principally become all about the meta-game.  That is the game is mostly played out in selecting your force and once they hit the table you see how it did and tweak your list accordingly.  ie most of the meaningful decisions are made before and after the battle. 

Looking at battle reports written for it don't give any kind of "believable" narrative either so it also lacks in playing out a story as well.  Compare it to a write up for a Chain of Command game.  A game like that can't help but be written up in a narrative style since the game play gives that kind of action.

I think this is also why there was such a backlash against AoS.  If most of the decisions in WFB were in list building then what happens to the game if it doesn't have any army lists?

I was thinking about this myself. Strategy is far too easy for stuff like 40k because you know what you're bringing to the board. One of the things that would spice it up a bit is if each player rolled to see which units actually made it or something, and try to win based off that. At the very least, it'd force people to change up their strategies.

Then again, knowing the average 40k player they'd just bring a legion of superheavies and nothing else so if they lose one they keep the rest.

[Col. Aubrey Bagshot]

Inquisimunda, which is basically Necromunda modified as much as you like with house rules.
Some of our group have been giving that a go and it has been much more fun.
10 or so figures a side where each one 'counts' and you really notice its loss.

With the rumoured re-release of 'Munda, this concept may grow even more.
Which would suit me fine as it is the sort of skirmish game that I prefer.
 

GW have always had really good skirmish, or at least small scale, game rules. The original LotR rule set is still a fantastic rule set for smaller games, and was reworked into the whole "legends" series of rules. Both munda and Mord share the same basic principles and ideas and they in turn, have been re worked by other companies since.

What i find interesting about the new SG division of GW, is that it probably wont produce ANY rules at all!
GW are now a miniatures company period.

So any releases for munda or Mord, may well be stand alone boxed games that people buy for the excellent plastic models.

Sound familiar?