The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread

[Vermis]

What I don't understand is the sense from some Warhammer players that this is the end of the game they enjoy -- is there some reason they think that they will no longer be able to play version 8? Or is this down to it no longer being allowed in GW shop games?

The latter, at least partially. I've had a bit of a, ah... lively discussion about it recently. As far as I can see the attitude is that you have to play at a GW store (or a local gaming shop that sells the five or six most popular publicised games) because anything else is a howling wasteland where you'll be put through the unimaginable tortures of having to organise things for yourself and being able to continue playing without buying heaps of new stuff...

Edit: with the caveat that it's hardwired into a gamer's genetics that they do keep buying heaps of stuff, but generally not to scramble to keep up with rules churn; to bloat an army beyond sense; or because the sellers convinced the gamers and themselves that that's what the hobby actually is.

[FramFramson]

Well, it's not entirely baseless complaint.

New players will typically be introduced to whichever rules set is newest and will stay current as that is what's officiated for tournaments etc. Also, if we're NOT talking about GW, then "most current" usually means "best" in the sense that problems have been worked out, things have been cleared up and organized, etc. and if you don't know GW, then it's easy for new players to assume the most current rules are the ones with the most work behind them and are in the best shape.

Sure, within your own play group it's possible to come to a consensus about one edition or another, but it's often a hassle to explain to someone why "obsolete" ruleset X is superior to the current rules and other obsolete rulesets.

Granted, folks who get into wargaming will usually learn many rules sets and switch between at least a couple if not loads, but GW being the gateway drug (of course this is waning) means you get players who aren't used to that idea yet.

[Major_Gilbear]

[...] is there some reason they think that they will no longer be able to play version 8?

No idea, but this has always been my attitude. I mean, if you already play a game you like and have all the clobber for it, why not stick with it?

Then again, for a lot of hobbyists the "shiny-new" is always the driving force. Playing anything but the latest edition is tantamount to excluding yourself from hobby forums, and is (basically) making yourself extremely unfashionable.

[beefcake]

Same thing goes for new phones doesn't it. Buy the new one, they say it's better. Gotta keep up with the latest trends or else you will seem uncool. Lol, writing this about being in a GW store. I don't think being a wargamer, no matter how fun we find it, will be considered cool.

[Tactalvanic]

I think FramFramson has the gist of it.

GW are about the new customer.

Preferably young, impressionable with affluent parents..... or the collector

Then there is tournament and the WarHammer shop you must play in backing that up as well, so new players, latest shiny their parents want to get their moneys worth from...

Of course its also GrimDARK, so negativity, end is nigh, its all gone, we gonna die is really part of the whole thing.

So an amount of "doomed, we're all doomed, the end is nigh, repent and see the light, and buy into the latest version", is perhaps to be expected?

[Damas]

***making yourself extremely unfashionable.

I don't think I've ever considered Warhamster players fashionable.  Even when I worked for the company, played the games and toed the company line.

Just not the kind of person I wanted to emulate. 

[Brummie]

I recently started picking up a few pieces for nostalgia sake (I remember having Blood Angels in the 90s) and wanted to practice some painting techniques on 28mm figures.

Frankly I don't mind the prices per say, I treat 28mm as a skirmish scale anyway and prices for this scale when it comes to sci fi/fantasy are pretty high across the board but if bought in small amounts with the next amount only purchased once the last lot were painted, probably its no more expensive than any other hobby, wargaming other stuff/scales or otherwise.

My only issue with GW is the experience you get when entering a store.

Its just the endless hassle, sure its been like this for awhile. But when I go in to pick up a box of plastic robots for a family members birthday present or paint, the last thing I want is to be grilled about why I'm buying it, and then urged to buy another set of other expensive stuff because it works well in the rules or looks good in that hue.

I've worked in various retail/visitor outlets for nearly 7 years and you don't pester the customers. You let them come to you with their queries. I've been informed they are trained to act this way, which is the biggest indication (if any) that whoever runs GW or at least the store front operation doesn't have a clue what they are doing.

That being said, I do find the fluff still interesting, and at least what has come out of the books etc has made the Warhammer 40k universe a little more complicated and intricate then ye olde 'Grim-Dark' and it is cool. Afterall the last thing you need to peddle are products based on some depressing universe in currently depressing times.

I've also had the pleasure of encountering some of the more engaged followers of GW outside the store, thought I'd say hi, but it was awkward going. 

[Major_Gilbear]

I don't think I've ever considered Warhamster players fashionable.

Ah, well, I meant in terms of context! Even with their boutique rebranding, I think GW has a long way to go before it's widely regarded as fashionable in the wider sense.

I mean, fashion (and what is fashionable) is mostly judged by those interested in whatever the relevant fashion is. So in the context of playing Fantasy Strife Mallet, the apparent prevailing opinion (i.e., usually the loudest opinion) is what every impressionable Malleteer strives for...

One thing that I've always been somewhat surprised by though is that in all this time, there's never been a "Community Edition" of the game. It would solve of lot the silly rules nonsense that people argue and fret over, and many of the more popular tournaments' restrictions amount to partial re-writes anyway.

[Tactalvanic]

One thing that I've always been somewhat surprised by though is that in all this time, there's never been a "Community Edition" of the game. It would solve of lot the silly rules nonsense that people argue and fret over, and many of the more popular tournaments' restrictions amount to partial re-writes anyway.

Community Edition - can GW copyright that ?

I guess my main thought leans towards previous editions, other fantasy battle games - and the - use what you want past and present.. There is the only community versions GW will generate perhaps

Maybe its the mindset also - teenagers even nerdy spotty unfashionable ones don't like to agree on anything.

and is or would it be compatible with GW business practice? after all the drive is always to sell the next thing, improve the rules... change so you have to.... buy more product to play etc.

If they stopped that - used a common community edition for tournament etc that was more static - would they fear the impact to the bottom line then? no change, no sale, oh no 

In essence the constant changes and partial re-writes are seen as commercially necessary?

[Major_Gilbear]

Community Edition - can GW copyright that ?

I guess my main thought leans towards previous editions, other fantasy battle games - and the - use what you want past and present.. There is the only community versions GW will generate perhaps

Maybe its the mindset also - teenagers even nerdy spotty unfashionable ones don't like to agree on anything.

and is or would it be compatible with GW business practice? after all the drive is always to sell the next thing, improve the rules... change so you have to.... buy more product to play etc.

If they stopped that - used a common community edition for tournament etc that was more static - would they fear the impact to the bottom line then? no change, no sale, oh no 

In essence the constant changes and partial re-writes are seen as commercially necessary?

I don't mean anything officially endorsed by GW, but rather something produced and universally acknowledged by the players themselves.

As I said, a lot of the more popular tournaments (ETC format for example) already have a raft of changes to the core rules anyway.

Additionally, the wider gaming community had already taken a lot of the "Specialist Games" away from GW for a while, and re-writes of older games (like NetEpic) have been around for aaages.

In effect, the Community Edition would be like the house rules that a club or your friends might use, but on a worldwide scale - thus eliminating the "problem" of house rules in that everyone's playing a slightly different version of the game from each other, making discussion or pick-up games potentially tricky.

As long as no copyright-able names are used, then there is pretty much nothing that GW can do about it either. The rules mechanics for example cannot be legally protected.

I recently started picking up a few pieces for nostalgia sake (I remember having Blood Angels in the 90s) and wanted to practice some painting techniques on 28mm figures.

Slippery slope!

I too loved the Blood Angels (and had half the company in 6mm scale) in the 90's, but with the coming of 3rd Edition, their background was re-focused into the dreadful rubbish we have now.

Frankly I don't mind the prices per say, I treat 28mm as a skirmish scale anyway and prices for this scale when it comes to sci fi/fantasy are pretty high across the board but if bought in small amounts with the next amount only purchased once the last lot were painted, probably its no more expensive than any other hobby, wargaming other stuff/scales or otherwise.

It's reached the stage where Forge World's prices are now fairly equivalent in many cases to GW's.

That said, if you like Space Marines and the background (and you're after a real nostalgia hit), I highly recommend FW's Horus Heresy series of books and models. Very expensive, but it's easily the best thing put out by the whole of GW for the last decade.

The other nice thing about FW's books is that they get to redefine the events of the HH, and by extension can therefore provide new (and so far, excellent) thematic background to the original eighteen Legions and the other relevant forces.

My only issue with GW is the experience you get when entering a store.

Its just the endless hassle, sure its been like this for awhile. But when I go in to pick up a box of plastic robots for a family members birthday present or paint, the last thing I want is to be grilled about why I'm buying it, and then urged to buy another set of other expensive stuff because it works well in the rules or looks good in that hue.

I've worked in various retail/visitor outlets for nearly 7 years and you don't pester the customers. You let them come to you with their queries. I've been informed they are trained to act this way, which is the biggest indication (if any) that whoever runs GW or at least the store front operation doesn't have a clue what they are doing.

I cannot remember when entering a GW was ever any different (well, for the last 22 years of my experience at least) - only in the event that you were reasonably regular or known to the store manager were you ever let off the hook.  

[zemjw]

My only issue with GW is the experience you get when entering a store.

Its just the endless hassle, sure its been like this for awhile. But when I go in to pick up a box of plastic robots for a family members birthday present or paint, the last thing I want is to be grilled about why I'm buying it, and then urged to buy another set of other expensive stuff because it works well in the rules or looks good in that hue.

I've found that I've been hassled a lot less since they went to one-man stores There's still the occasional "hello" as you enter, but not the following you around and trying to engage you in conversation that they used to do.

I find it also helps to pick something up and carry it about, as then they seem less likely to target you. I'm of the age now where they probably think I'm buying for my kids, but with a box of something in my hand, they mostly back off.

Still, it's an experience I avoid unless I'm actively looking for something. As someone prone to "ooh shiny" when browsing, their approach has saved me a small fortune over the years

[Vladimir Raukov]

Honestly, I've never had a problem when going into a GW store. They ask what I'm after, I get it, have a bit of a chat over what I'm working on, ask them about what they're working on and I leave. If they try to get me to spend more (a rare occurrence - maybe they gave up on me?) I just point out that while tempting, I only have x amount of dollars in my wallet at the time. It tends to work. Still, I hear that not everyone's as lucky as me.

Now, given that I'm not prone to wandering the internets and dredging every scrap of GW info I can find, I have to ask what all the fuss about this AoS is? I pretty much know what the abbreviation stands for and that's it.

[Brummie]

Honestly, I've never had a problem when going into a GW store. They ask what I'm after, I get it, have a bit of a chat over what I'm working on, ask them about what they're working on and I leave. If they try to get me to spend more (a rare occurrence - maybe they gave up on me?) I just point out that while tempting, I only have x amount of dollars in my wallet at the time. It tends to work. Still, I hear that not everyone's as lucky as me.

Now, given that I'm not prone to wandering the internets and dredging every scrap of GW info I can find, I have to ask what all the fuss about this AoS is? I pretty much know what the abbreviation stands for and that's it.

I'am told/was informed the fuss was primarily to do with them refocusing on a purely skirmish game that was heavily dependent on character figures, with only a few units really being involved.

Thus anyone who'd spent mega-bucks on big armies was being left out in the cold.

Though that said I'd say that's really the way 28mm is going to go all round. Skirmish just seems way more sensible. Being primarily a 6mm-15mm focused I was pretty surprised on how hefty Games Workshop 28mm was. If I tried fitting them on some of my gaming tables/worktops for a game they'd literally be firing point-blank into each other  .

However Skirmish orientated I think is just far more alluring. It means less pressure to buy loads of cr*p we don't need, AND more effort can be expended on painting them to a high standard... In theory.

I too loved the Blood Angels (and had half the company in 6mm scale) in the 90's, but with the coming of 3rd Edition, their background was re-focused into the dreadful rubbish we have now.

Yeah I have half the chapter in 6mm now  not finished but nearly!
I do hope GW turn back towards doing smaller scales, EPIC was just awesome (seeing a product in both 28mm and 6mm is brilliant). And although I'm not too bothered by GW fantasy franchise, there is enough of that 10mm stuff in the loft that its probably causing the house to sink.

That said, if you like Space Marines and the background (and you're after a real nostalgia hit), I highly recommend FW's Horus Heresy series of books and models. Very expensive, but it's easily the best thing put out by the whole of GW for the last decade.

I've heard a lot of good things about the Horus Heresy set of Novels, and I have seen the figures too. Very nice, but crickey, couldn't afford another project right now 

I cannot remember when entering a GW was ever any different (well, for the last 22 years of my experience at least) - only in the event that you were reasonably regular or known to the store manager were you ever let off the hook.  Confused

Now I'm fairly familiar with the store, I just rush in, grab a box, rush to the counter, buy it, say goodbye and then rush out. Fast. Tbh I may be being a tad harsh as the fella who is usually there is fairly light on convo and tends to be fairly on the mark with help/suggestions.

[Major_Gilbear]

I have to ask what all the fuss about this AoS is? I pretty much know what the abbreviation stands for and that's it.

...Well, that's pretty much it. AoS = Age of Sigmar. Anything beyond that, nobody outside the GW studio knows! And that's exactly why everyone's in a flap really.

The current edition of Fantasy has continued the trend of decreasing sales and popularity, and coupled with The End Times series of supplements that culminate with (literally) blowing up the Warhammer world, people are very apprehensive about what will come next. This is especially true after they expected people who played 8E to buy very large and very expensive armies in order to play.

I've heard a lot of good things about the Horus Heresy set of Novels, and I have seen the figures too. Very nice, but crickey, couldn't afford another project right now  

I was more meaning these; they are really nice, but they are really expensive! Maybe keep an eye out for any that come up second-hand.

Now I'm fairly familiar with the store, I just rush in, grab a box, rush to the counter, buy it, say goodbye and then rush out. Fast. Tbh I may be being a tad harsh as the fella who is usually there is fairly light on convo and tends to be fairly on the mark with help/suggestions.

To be fair, any of the long-term staff in the city centre store know me from over a decade back, and they are normally perfectly polite and normal in their behaviour to me in the store. That they recognise me and remember what I collect (besides GW games) is rather flattering too! It's only the new recruits that approach with all the charm and salemanship of a Servitor.

[Tactalvanic]

I don't mean anything officially endorsed by GW, but rather something produced and universally acknowledged by the players themselves.

As I said, a lot of the more popular tournaments (ETC format for example) already have a raft of changes to the core rules anyway.

Additionally, the wider gaming community had already taken a lot of the "Specialist Games" away from GW for a while, and re-writes of older games (like NetEpic) have been around for aaages.

In effect, the Community Edition would be like the house rules that a club or your friends might use, but on a worldwide scale - thus eliminating the "problem" of house rules in that everyone's playing a slightly different version of the game from each other, making discussion or pick-up games potentially tricky.

As long as no copyright-able names are used, then there is pretty much nothing that GW can do about it either. The rules mechanics for example cannot be legally protected.

Oooh that I can agree with, I almost put in a large essay about NetEpic, but at work so...

One has to do some work between breaks...

Thats the kind of way I would lean. happily.

As for AoS - ok see it when they release it...

Still plenty of other games and  rules to play with so no big deal.

Is there something else they have done that we can have a go at now instead?

Oh but this sounds a bit positive:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/age-of-sigmar-latest-just-how-different-is-it.html