Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Ozreth on 10 June 2025, 05:10:49 PM
-
It is my understanding that the WH Old World of the 1980s had a shift in lore that was a major change and turn-off to some, something I have seen mentioned in passing on this forum. In relation to both the wargame and the RPG, when and what was this shift?
-
Even the Old World of the 1980's wasn't without its problems - despite setting off from the same place, both WFB and WFRP ended up in different places. The original novels explored the Old World and enhanced the lore of the setting, which was echoed in the WFRP game. Then when the WFB army books came out GW sidelined that entire lore completely, pushing it far back into the past and going off in a completely different direction. That there have been several other changes in direction since then doesn't surprise me as GW brings in different people with totally different ideas. There has been very little in the way of a guiding overall strategy - just different people pulling in different directions at different times - it has been (and probably still is) a complete mess.
-
You might be interested in an article that is up on the GW site at the moment explaining how they've approached Cathay from the Old World. They went back and read everything that mentioned Cathay as far back as 2nd ed., to make sure that the current stuff is grounded in what came before. I think they do that quite often - there is some stuff in the current version of Necromunda for example that has its origins in the late 80s Confrontation game GW never finished.
As for when the Old World went south, I know some older heads who didn't like the Realm of Chaos stuff coming in, felt it dominated the setting too much. For me, the fluff never went south, I lost interest in WHFB when the rules went south - the edition with the High Elves and Gobbos in the box.
-
Yeah, the Old World has essentially two forms: the gritty, dark, lived-in world of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Mordheim; and the zany, technicolour world of Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
These two Old Worlds have never really matched up.
The latter was best (I reckon) when it was largely undeveloped and open-ended: in the first, second and third editions. It didn't take itself too seriously, and there wasn't much 'lore', but it was a generic fantasy world with room for everything and startling flashes of originality (Lustria, for example).
-
I liked WHFB from 5th (Lizardmen and weirdly opposed Bretonnians), up until they blew it up with Age of Sigmar and tried to “40k” the setting.
Sure, some editions were better than others, probably 7th was my peak rules after the chopped up version that 6th was, but Sigmar just… is bland.
I have tried to look at the “new Old World” and generally I like it, but GW being GW, they have “FOMO” releases with things like the classic Orc Shaman on Wyvern, which just kills the fun. Make it available or don’t. Don’t force me to jump if I want it. Because I won’t jump, and I’ll not bother. I have some of the books for the new OW, and gave up.
-
Third edition was our highest participation, 4th was tolerated, 5th killed it. I think it was more of getting tired of the constant changes that impacted individual armies more than anything. I would agree the Chaos updates were a bit over the top and unbalanced. AOS... even I hated that fluff change. lol
I was always up for gaming 3 or 4th edition but in spite of our not being tournament driven we couldn't keep interest up in our group.
-
Third edition was our highest participation, 4th was tolerated, 5th killed it. I think it was more of getting tired of the constant changes that impacted individual armies more than anything. I would agree the Chaos updates were a bit over the top and unbalanced. AOS... even I hated that fluff change. lol
I was always up for gaming 3 or 4th edition but in spite of our not being tournament driven we couldn't keep interest up in our group.
You didn’t like 5th?!? That was by far the silliest, most wonky, edition, ever! Bretonnian wedge charge was invincible, Dogs of War?!? OMG, so much fun to add mercenary giants to an army of Tzeentch daemons (with no reason how they got there lol ) but man they could crush anything. Also MAGIC DECK OF CARDS!
All bases were required to be Goblin Green. Sawdust tint for flock. Smelly Primer applied by hand on all metal models.
Those were the days!
-
Being the only Bretonnian player in our goup - I liked the wedge changes. Dogs of War were truly magnificent units in my opinion - I had quite a few. But it died with 5th edition in our group.
My Skaven hordes were quite non conformist and had beastial brown bases.
-
Being the only Bretonnian player in our goup - I liked the wedge changes. Dogs of War were truly magnificent units in my opinion - I had quite a few. But it died with 5th edition in our group.
My Skaven hordes were quite non conformist and had beastial brown bases.
We had no Skaven in our local; O&G, Dwarfs, Lizardmen, Chaos (many…), Dogs of War, Brets, Empire. Weird that no Skaven, eh?
-
We had no Skaven in our local; O&G, Dwarfs, Lizardmen, Chaos (many…), Dogs of War, Brets, Empire. Weird that no Skaven, eh?
My skaven tended to kill themselves as often as others when their spells or war-machines failed. Funny no one else ever played them...
-
My skaven tended to kill themselves as often as others when their spells or war-machines failed. Funny no one else ever played them...
lol that sounds very much like my 2nd ed 40k Orks - the Shokk Attack gun killed ZERO enemies in 2 years but did kill a crap-ton of my own models. Still didn’t stop me from hoping … TWO YEARS lol
-
I got into 40K in the early 90's...and while I always admired Warhammer Fantasy around the time, I didn't collect it outside of Warhammer Quest. No kid could afford a regiment of 30 figures in metal (which would have been 10 blisters!), or a big fancy regiment box, etc. I had played Battle Masters a few years earlier, but that was the extent of my fantasy gaming.
I later started reading all the back issues of White Dwarf, and really the mid-90's was the sweet spot for my interest. As with all things, it became weirder and weirder...bigger and bigger, and eventually the minis became a bit too much for most of the armies. I lost interest in reading the battle reports in the early 2000's or so.
So, while now I game "in" the Warhammer Fantasy world, my interest in the kits, games, and appearance really is mid-90's.
There aren't words to describe how much I loathe AoS in almost every regard, but I was fortunate that it didn't impact me when it came around.
-
AoS was TRULY LOATHSOME to anyone who had, say … 8 or 9 4000pts of various late Warhammer edition armies. Like me … it took me about 18 months of eBay to clear out my armies. I’m a former Golden Demon winner. My stuff was painted to a pretty high standard. Sigmar sucked all the life out of gaming from me. But I did make a crap-ton of money from the resultant sales of people who did ? ninth ? “Fan Edition” and kept going? I travelled the world. Literally.
-
For me the end point was when "Chaos Undivided" became a thing.
Doing away with the original Conanesque "Barbarians" style of Chaos and introducing the Realms of Chaos was a massive change in the game world (it also resulted in production of 2 of the best Warhammer products ever).
Each God having unique forces and strengths and weaknesses created some wonderful armies. So the subsequent decision to ignore all that and just pick the best units from any list as an "undivided" force was a stupid decision.
-
Although I got into WHFB in 5th; it was really Mordheim/6th Ed that I got properly involved. To my eyes at the time 6th ed felt a bit grittier than 5th ed - particularly for the Empire and Skaven who were my principle interests. Both armies (as presented in WD, etc) were more uniform and less 'explosion in a paint factory'. Reading a lot of the Black Library novels at the time didn't really throw up any consistencies to my teenage eyes.
Looking back, through my Empire-centric eyes, for me it tottered over a line into 'Overly grimdark' when the most recent plastics being released.... in 8th (?) edition. Although I must admit, by then I had drifted away from GW games to other things
-
I don't know when it happened, but when Norsca became all chaos was stupid, you have instances of Norsca all over the place, Lustria and as ships pilots in the whatever the Med is in Warhammer, all now chaos tainted and yet tolerated by these nations that otherwise are at war with chaos.
-
To me Warhammer's setting faltered at the same point as a lot of other fantasy and sci-fi settings - when they start trying to cover as much as possible on their map with lords, uniforms, and the current military/political situation explained in detail. It's far better to mostly keep the stories low level and let the players' and readers' imaginations fill in the blanks - which will naturally lead to less things they will find unappealing and gives them the room to be the chief creative force behind their hobby projects. There should still be enough to bite on for those wanting to follow existing stories, but just not to the level where painting your dudes the wrong colours is chafing with the official lore.
When they started to go way too crapsack was my main turn off with 40k and it seems WFB went that way towards the end. We see that issue forming into Trench Crusade and the other purely grimdark settings where it's just heaps of depressiveness and nothing positive to contrast it with. It all becomes less of a setting and more of a misery porn aesthetic.
-
To me Warhammer's setting faltered at the same point as a lot of other fantasy and sci-fi settings - when they start trying to cover as much as possible on their map with lords, uniforms, and the current military/political situation explained in detail. It's far better to mostly keep the stories low level and let the players' and readers' imaginations fill in the blanks - which will naturally lead to less things they will find unappealing and gives them the room to be the chief creative force behind their hobby projects. There should still be enough to bite on for those wanting to follow existing stories, but just not to the level where painting your dudes the wrong colours is chafing with the official lore.
When they started to go way too crapsack was my main turn off with 40k and it seems WFB went that way towards the end. We see that issue forming into Trench Crusade and the other purely grimdark settings where it's just heaps of depressiveness and nothing positive to contrast it with. It all becomes less of a setting and more of a misery porn aesthetic.
Much of this.
My main complaint about GW design is that they narrowed the universe so much by trying to codify every little thing. Open systems allow for imagination and enjoyable play. Closed systems, to me, are like banging your head on the same wall over and over.
-
My main complaint about GW design is that they narrowed the universe so much by trying to codify every little thing. Open systems allow for imagination and enjoyable play. Closed systems, to me, are like banging your head on the same wall over and over.
The problem is two-fold
-they have to codify everything to be able to trademark it. I do not like it, but somewhere deep inside I kinda understand it, there are a lot of stowaways living off on their IPs.
-the show MUST go on- whether it really NEEDS to or not. The best example is from 40k: Necrons. They were the mysterious race, but they could not left like that so that when their range was expanded all the new stuff needed explanation and now instead of the juicy mysterious unknown we have a pretty mediocre story and have to be happy about it :P
But if you have imagination, you can build up your own fantasy world, regardless what the big evil company wants. A bad turn of the background story (like the introduction of AoS) can kill the mood, yes. But ,,too much official background story" really should not be an issue to use your own fantasy..
-
I started with WFB 3rd edition and excitedly built a 2,000 point Slann army... about a year after I finished it, 4th was released and there was no room for my army. Same thing happened with my Squats with 40k 3rd...
-
Trying to understand the old world setting, to my mind, is a bit of a waste.
I have dabbled with say Island of blood, more for the miniatures, but at the end of the day the hardback WHFB on the shelf for reference and use is 3rd edition, wort's and all, good enough.
Alongside WHFRP of the same era.
I am not interested in tournament or constant keepy uppy with latest releases... I eclectically collect what I like/piques my interest.
Its like asking which Doctor is yours?
Some of it you like, some you don't etc.
As with other fantasy/sci-fi genres , I take/use what is needed from it, enjoy it, have fun, and I save my limited understanding for more important things o_o ?
-
Trying to understand the old world setting, to my mind, is a bit of a waste.
I have dabbled with say Island of blood, more for the miniatures, but at the end of the day the hardback WHFB on the shelf for reference and use is 3rd edition, wort's and all, good enough.
Alongside WHFRP of the same era.
I am not interested in tournament or constant keepy uppy with latest releases... I eclectically collect what I like/piques my interest.
Its like asking which Doctor is yours?
Some of it you like, some you don't etc.
As with other fantasy/sci-fi genres , I take/use what is needed from it, enjoy it, have fun, and I save my limited understanding for more important things o_o ?
Well, obviously the fourth doctor, the VERY BEST one lol
-
Trying to understand the old world setting, to my mind, is a bit of a waste.
I have dabbled with say Island of blood, more for the miniatures, but at the end of the day the hardback WHFB on the shelf for reference and use is 3rd edition, wort's and all, good enough.
Alongside WHFRP of the same era.
Is WHFB 3rd before or after they started marketing their own miniatures for the game? Before tournaments?
-
Is WHFB 3rd before or after they started marketing their own miniatures for the game? Before tournaments?
Erm, I don't quite understand your point there. Citadel/Games Workshop produced a whole load of ranges of fantasy miniatures - Warhammer were the rules they created to get you to buy more of their figures, entire armies worth.
3rd edition (I think I've got the mrb and the WFRP book around as well) really was the last 'fun' edition; 2nd brought in all the bad puns and silly jokes; the slapstick hysterical humour if you will, but 3rd brought in a solid core of rules - 3 hardback books: the rules, the armies and the siege, which were a fun yet solid set (well, apart from siege, that was just because GW had brought out a multipart castle model in expanded polystyrene I think).
-
Well, obviously the fourth doctor, the VERY BEST one lol
Indeed, this is the correct answer :D
I was watching a bit of the 4th last night in fact.
Is WHFB 3rd before or after they started marketing their own miniatures for the game? Before tournaments?
+1 what Rick said, your probably thinking along the lines of them moving slowly into plastic production, I think a little later, but they produced plenty of good solid metal for armies prior to that.
Basically moving from role players to include mass wargamers, to shift more stuff.
But yes Third is very much an old sweet spot of younger years, and a little bit of silliness.
-
After 1991, 3rd Edition. When Ian Livingston, Steve Jackson and Bryan Ansell sold Games Workshop, it became something entirely different whilst wearing the same name.
It is no surprise that so many people regard 3rd edition as the high point of WHFB, because after that you have Tom Kirby, criticised for trying to squeeze every dollar out of the franchise, without the love of the previous owners for their own creation. It was under his leadership that GW started to crack down on tightening the IP, whilst previously GW had encouraged collectors to use whatever models they had.
-
I never got too much into the background of the Old World when I started playing in 5th edition. It was more of a system we used to play our own fantasy games, often set in a world like Elric's The Young Kingdoms.
When Warmaster came out I really liked that system and did have more of an Old World setting to our game but hadn't read too much of it still.
When 6th came out I read more of the army books and still wasn't too keen on the setting. It was a little magic heavy for me and had too many warmachine type things that I didn't like. It was in that edition that we started playing games set in the Old World though and had a number of armies to play.
I got more and more into historicals soon after that and pretty much abandoned GW altogether in about 2005. Not that I didn't play the odd game here and there.
In 2015 when AoS came out I was intrigued. Here was a game where you could use fantasy armies to play games on terrain that wasn't just historical terrain with a fantasy twist.
The rules were simple and the games were based on narrative scenarios instead of points. I loved it! The setting was fresh too and had a lot of places to go. Post-apocalypse fantasy was how I described it. Armies of almost robot-like angels smitting their chaos foes and pushing into the realms to reconquer them in the name of Sigmar.
I couldn't wait to see what they did.
I wanted to see new human armies that were more primitive than the Empire and Brettonia. See more and different types of the other races.
I got the latter. The dwaf Fyreslayers weren't exactly my cup of tea, but they certainly leaned into something different there and went in whole hog.
The Chaos stuff was awesome. Then they released the Cities of Sigmar faction and I found out that they were going to be just doing the same old thing with the humans. In 1000's, maybe 10s of thousands of years, it turns out even the fashion hadn't changed. Still slashed doublets.
The setting became something that was just another fantasy world with cities where humans and elves and dwarfs and evil elves and on and on just got along together more or less.
The robot-like storm cast became characters and had personalities and there was even flesh under the armour.
I felt like they had lost the thread. It lost a lot of the desperation that it seemed like it had when it started.
Then the rules got more complicated and I just lost the narrative entirely. From being the game that got me back into GW entirely (and very deeply) I don't play AoS at all anymore.
-
I think around the mid-2000s is when the Old World started to go downhill- the aesthetic changes of the course of the noughties from a basically historical one to a much more easily IP-able one that just doesn't scratch the same itch.
Prior to that there's a lot of changes too of course, but I find something to love in most of the different versions of Warhammer- I love Mordheim for the character building elements, 6th Edition for the huge rank and flank fun, and 3rd Edition for the totally wacky fun- and of course the (fantastic) Realms of Chaos books that emerged during that era.
But I'm a young 'un who got into Warhammer Fantasy after it had been discontinued so my opinion shouldn't carry much too weight lol
-
After 1991, 3rd Edition. When Ian Livingston, Steve Jackson and Bryan Ansell sold Games Workshop, it became something entirely different whilst wearing the same name.
It is no surprise that so many people regard 3rd edition as the high point of WHFB, because after that you have Tom Kirby, criticised for trying to squeeze every dollar out of the franchise, without the love of the previous owners for their own creation. It was under his leadership that GW started to crack down on tightening the IP, whilst previously GW had encouraged collectors to use whatever models they had.
I think I'd have to agree with Cubs.
I got into GW before the sale but it was a year or two before I actually started to game, having collected only the odd few minis here and there as I couldn't afford much more. I played Battle Manual 40k and some Advanced HeroQuest for a year or two then the sale happened. My enjoyment of 2nd Ed 40k and 4th Ed WFB kinda rode on the coat tails of what had been but it became quickly apparent to me that something was off. With the arrival of plastic kits I got into kit bashing and that became the hobby for me but GW now seems hell-bent on abandoning that part of the hobby too now.
-
After 1991, 3rd Edition. When Ian Livingston, Steve Jackson and Bryan Ansell sold Games Workshop, it became something entirely different whilst wearing the same name.
It is no surprise that so many people regard 3rd edition as the high point of WHFB, because after that you have Tom Kirby, criticised for trying to squeeze every dollar out of the franchise, without the love of the previous owners for their own creation. It was under his leadership that GW started to crack down on tightening the IP, whilst previously GW had encouraged collectors to use whatever models they had.
In 1994 GW went to the stock market, from then on it got big money for development, but in return, it had to make profit for the shareholders. Also be able to demonstrate that they do not waste the money.
Encouraging collectors to use their own models was joy and fun until it was about 2-3 small companies with almost underground distribution channels versus the GW stores, but from the mid2000s internet and webshops became a thing and suddenly the concurrency made up the advantages GW had on marketing, distribution and target group reach (also causing a huge boom on miniature manufacturers). The world changed a lot regarding this type of generosity, GW had to adapt before they find themselves writing rules and flavor text for someone else's models.
...not that I like it, but it all happened for a reason.
-
After 1991, 3rd Edition. When Ian Livingston, Steve Jackson and Bryan Ansell sold Games Workshop, it became something entirely different whilst wearing the same name.
It is no surprise that so many people regard 3rd edition as the high point of WHFB, because after that you have Tom Kirby, criticised for trying to squeeze every dollar out of the franchise, without the love of the previous owners for their own creation. It was under his leadership that GW started to crack down on tightening the IP, whilst previously GW had encouraged collectors to use whatever models they had.
They even encouraged using deodorant and recycling the stick!
No, wait that’s 40k lol
-
They even encouraged using deodorant [...]
"An elegant weapon for a more civilized age" lol lol lol
-
In 2015 when AoS came out I was intrigued. Here was a game where you could use fantasy armies to play games on terrain that wasn't just historical terrain with a fantasy twist.
The rules were simple and the games were based on narrative scenarios instead of points. I loved it! The setting was fresh too and had a lot of places to go. Post-apocalypse fantasy was how I
hate AoS, it isn't a world, battles aren't over this collection of cottages at a crossroads or some remote farm, it's too abstract now, has no sense of place, it's just these astral planes and the lumping together of factions oversimplifies any relationships they might have.
-
it's too abstract now, has no sense of place, it's just these astral planes and the lumping together of factions oversimplifies any relationships they might have.
100% agree. The setting is just to vague and broad for me to understand- that was true for WFB to an extent, but it at least had some well-established places to tie everything down- Middenheim, Altdorf, Praag, etc. The Mortal Realms just feel like a great big void to me.
But no hate to anyone who enjoys it! I guess it gives you a lot of freedom to create your own lore within the world, I just find that less appealing than the more interesting setting that was Warhammer Fantasy.
-
hate AoS, it isn't a world, battles aren't over this collection of cottages at a crossroads or some remote farm, it's too abstract now, has no sense of place, it's just these astral planes and the lumping together of factions oversimplifies any relationships they might have.
Exactly, especially in the early days it was just super-super heroes against super-super-super heroes to save the ahsoimportant pillars of the world or some similar bullsht, but in the end not tied to a proper world it was just a weird, kaleidoscopic acid trip without any weight or feel of sympathy.
-
yep, you need borders to fight over, passes to invade, resources to pillage... it's all just ghosts vs sigmarines for some reason.
even before WFRP, the WFB world was populated, you fought over fields and hamlets, control of that vital trade route or just straight up against an imaginable evil that wanted to kill everything, but even then the stakes felt real, it was rooted in a world with geography.
-
even before WFRP, the WFB world was populated, you fought over fields and hamlets, control of that vital trade route or just straight up against an imaginable evil that wanted to kill everything, but even then the stakes felt real, it was rooted in a world with geography.
There are different approaches for fantasy, some people did not like it as fighting for a muddy road crossing was not fairytale enough and saw WHFBs histirocal wargame heritage as an unnecessary baggage from the past. And apparently "Warhammer Fantasy was never meant to be high fantasy" was not an acceptable answer :P
-
high fantasy is just too far for me, it's too hand wavy and stuff happens. things don't happen in a vacuum, you need to feel that there is somewhere that that armour comes from, that there is somewhere that the iron to make the armour came from.
-
high fantasy is just too far for me, it's too hand wavy and stuff happens. things don't happen in a vacuum, you need to feel that there is somewhere that that armour comes from, that there is somewhere that the iron to make the armour came from.
Yes, this. At it's best, the Old World was firmly rooted in a world you could relate to - the pseudo-european flavour of the main areas was such that you could borrow what you wanted from history and use a dash of fantasy to fill in the blanks. Just like many great fantasy authors do - the world they create may be unique but it is familiar, relatable; we can imagine ourselves in that familiar (ish) world and the fantasy elements just add an extra layer.
-
I'm not sure when it happened, but the game went from fun to prebattle list building. I really liked the silliness of the ORcs and Goblins. Their unpredictability and randomness used to make me laugh. I honestly do not remember when it changed, but what got me to sink my teeth into it was the Orc and Goblin army book where the article about orcs bringing along goblins for support was fine, but in desperate times they simply became a snack.
I played a few local tournaments that were fun back then, but eventually things got to competitive.Here is my take on the change in the scene.
FUN:
Orchestra and Goblins vs Dwarves. 1st turn
- Doom diver on a lucky roll takes out the anvil of doom on the First action, what a great start for me.
- Giant crossing a low wall tripped and fell of the board.
-next doomdiver crashed into the main goblin horde with the leader and caused so many casualties that it had to test. It failed and the core command warband ran taking 2-3 neighboring one with it.
-Shamen cast the spell stomping foot of doom (whatever it was called) on the Iron Breaker dwarf unit and killed many of them, then preceeded to stomp on a number of my other units causing more morale failure cascades.
- Looney hidden in two of the night goblin mobs released randomly causing more damage to the Orcs and Goblins.
- by the end of the first turn I had gone from an incredible start to one of the most fun disasters I've ever had, The Dwarven player went from almost rage quiting after the loss of the anvil to complete disbelief as the orc and Goblins self destruction in front of them.
Bad- no fun
-Having to build 80 figure massive supper mobs supported by Skarsnik in order to just stand up to the opponents supper units. The flair of flank and maneuver just disappeared as well as the humorous silliness, and with it my interest in the game.
I do not remember when this occurred or what edition, but that change pretty much started the end of the old world for me. When the fun died, so did my interest.
Skipper
-
My
-
high fantasy is just too far for me, it's too hand wavy and stuff happens. things don't happen in a vacuum, you need to feel that there is somewhere that that armour comes from, that there is somewhere that the iron to make the armour came from.
Exactly, the catch of high fantasy is that a good fictional world shall be coherent within itself and when everything happens because of magic, coherency usually quickly falls apart, also the wow factor in supernatural elements will get quickly inflated away. Also when everything is decided by the outcome of superheroes close combat duels, the whole army-world thing just starts to make no sense at all. (This is my biggest problem with Horus Heresy, and 40k too is constantly pushed into this direction.)
The flair of flank and maneuver just disappeared as well as the humorous silliness, and with it my interest in the game.
A really good point about maneuvering, tabletop wargames should always have a strong maneuver element, when it is all about list building and combos, the models-on-the-tabletop part simply starts to feel superflous.
-
I do not remember when this occurred or what edition, but that change pretty much started the end of the old world for me. When the fun died, so did my interest.
There was still the silliness in 4th edition (I loved the night goblin fanatics and the squigs) but list building definitely took priority then. Actually it wasn't even really list building in my adolescent gaming group: you spent the maximum allowed on characters, especially on finding combos between various magic items, and whoever executed their combos first won the game.
It was no surprise we abandoned miniatures for Magic the Gathering in '95 :)
-
Interesting questions.
To me the setting never went south. I mean the setting itself was never a problem; sure there are plenty of later additions I didn't like but I always just ignored what I disliked and used the setting as a background, an excuse even, to just motivate me to paint my dwarfs and create a unique story that would tie all my dwarf miniatures together.
When the game got discontinued, I barely noticed, I kept playing with friends and I kept painting dwarfs that might or might not have been GW models.
I appreciate the general setting, I enjoy the rules enough, and that's all I need then.
What went south, if anything ever did, was GW approach to the game. But even then, it's less the game and more me growing up or changing tastes. When TOW was announced, younger me would have been ecstatic, but I was and still am totally indifferent. And seeing the discussion around the game being, for the most part, about list building and meta chasing, really makes me appreciate "dead" editions better.
-
"That is not dead
Which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons
Even death may die."
Sorry but I just HAD to put that in there. No game is ever 'dead' if you have the rulebook and the willingness to use it - prompted by this thread, I dug out my WFB 3rd book and I might have a go, but with Oathmark figures I think.
-
I don't know when it happened, but when Norsca became all chaos was stupid, you have instances of Norsca all over the place, Lustria and as ships pilots in the whatever the Med is in Warhammer, all now chaos tainted and yet tolerated by these nations that otherwise are at war with chaos.
So... i've never really paid much attention to the "warhammer world" but i remember with fondness a softback A4 campaign set in Lustria, with norsemen looking to loot a temple, lobotimised slaves, Slann and bolt pistols... all the "Chaos 40k" stuff was way past my attention span
-
So... i've never really paid much attention to the "warhammer world" but i remember with fondness a softback A4 campaign set in Lustria, with norsemen looking to loot a temple, lobotimised slaves, Slann and bolt pistols... all the "Chaos 40k" stuff was way past my attention span
I was thinking about this earlier today - the Slann were, I think, the first 'new' race brought into Warhammer (1st edition) through 'the Legend of Kremlo the Slann' and, later, 'the Temple of Rigg' with the tooled up Amazons (2nd edition maybe?) but these were articles in the Citadel compendium maybe - I think Lost Minis wiki might have a copy on the site or, at least, some information on it.
-
I was thinking about this earlier today - the Slann were, I think, the first 'new' race brought into Warhammer (1st edition) through 'the Legend of Kremlo the Slann' and, later, 'the Temple of Rigg' with the tooled up Amazons (2nd edition maybe?) but these were articles in the Citadel compendium maybe - I think Lost Minis wiki might have a copy on the site or, at least, some information on it.
I think this might be the source of my constant confusion when it comes to Warhammer...40K etc... I have this voice on endless loop...
..."there are editions?"
Showing my age :'(
-
...not that I like it, but it all happened for a reason.
It's true, but the original creators are not the ones who floated GW on the stock market, Kirby did. So it's not like becoming a cash-over-joy company just happened, it was the result of deliberate decisions made in the boardroom. The originals never seemed to see the need for GW to be anything more than a vehicle for people to have fun with great models and games, instead of a cash-generating machine that constantly needed to grow in order to feed itself.
-
I think this might be the source of my constant confusion when it comes to Warhammer...40K etc... I have this voice on endless loop...
..."there are editions?"
Showing my age :'(
Even the Venerable 'WRG Ancients' rules had editions - 7 I believe (although 1st edition did come out in 1969) so it isn't a new idea, just confusing if you're not in the loop. I got out of Warhammer around 5th so I have no idea what editions they're up to now and AOS is definitely just something that happened to other people! lol
-
Eight editions of WFB between 1983 and 2010 then TOW in 2024. How long until 10th, I wonder?
The relentless release schedule was one of the reasons that I hopped off the merry-go-round.
-
I always liked the world circa 5th-6th. I've discovered Warhammer Renaissance which blends the best of 4th-6th with sprinklings of 3rd edition - the rules are finished and won't change and the army supplement is free and full of great fun options.
The lore? Take what I like and ignore the rest really. I actually like the weird blend of colourful whimsy with the gritty underbelly, and I do think they gel weirdly well together. Colourful armies arrayed for battle don't necessarily exclude towns and frontiers having their dirty and gritty aspects, full of villains and rogues, etc...
When you're gaming among like-minded friends, the world becomes YOUR group's setting, hopefully informed by events played out on the tabletop. An open approach to narrative and an attempt to make the world feel alive means we will unchain ourselves from the codification of the lore, but without too much of an "anything goes" attitude that would threaten the right sort of flavour and cohesion.
I certainly have little time for longwinded Reddit discussions about how the latest Named Character feels about his emotional reunion with his returning Primarch Named Character, etc etc. Screw the story they want to try and tell me - gaming lets us tell our own!
-
It's true, but the original creators are not the ones who floated GW on the stock market, Kirby did. So it's not like becoming a cash-over-joy company just happened, it was the result of deliberate decisions made in the boardroom. The originals never seemed to see the need for GW to be anything more than a vehicle for people to have fun with great models and games, instead of a cash-generating machine that constantly needed to grow in order to feed itself.
Bryan Ansell developed WFB in order to sell more minis. They were selling stuff for D&D but you only needed a handful of figures. So they pushed WFB to flog more. Having said that he didn’t put the accountants in charge of the studio. That change came with the takeover, float and subsequent descent into ever changing editions and power and scale creep
-
It's true, but the original creators are not the ones who floated GW on the stock market, Kirby did. So it's not like becoming a cash-over-joy company just happened, it was the result of deliberate decisions made in the boardroom. The originals never seemed to see the need for GW to be anything more than a vehicle for people to have fun with great models and games, instead of a cash-generating machine that constantly needed to grow in order to feed itself.
Unbound fun is just a period which naturally ends sooner or later. 20something merry boys with mommy hotel daddy bank and beer as the only expenditure can spend infinite time and work on just-have-fun projects, but sooner or later they will have bills to pay and mouths to feed, and have to make the decision: turning the lovechild project into a moneymaker or put it on the backburner it in favour of a better paying career.
The "great generation" of the 80s RPG scene had to face this decision in the late 80s-early 90s.
Screw the story they want to try and tell me - gaming lets us tell our own!
Oh yes, another common misconception in GW ranks is that we need stories. We do not, we watch tv for that. We need a setting to play our own stories in. 40k and WHF was great in that, but now they are pushing for stories.
-
All the years we heard people saying "They need to move the timeline forward!" etc as if it's an ongoing comic series. Now they've done that, we've got Marvel Avengers but with Primarchs. Boring. Galaxy feels the size of a shopping centre. It's the same with all the major nerd franchises now to be fair.
-
Unbound fun is just a period which naturally ends sooner or later. 20something merry boys with mommy hotel daddy bank and beer as the only expenditure can spend infinite time and work on just-have-fun projects,
Do you think this describes Ian Livingston, Steve Jackson and Bryan Ansell? From my recollection they were middle aged men who had built it from the ground up, made any number of sacrifices along the way and kept it running as a successful business that was happy being a market leader instead of a market dictator. Or perhaps it was aimed at me, who by that stage was very much living on my own in a flat, working in a pub to pay the bills. But hey, some people do feel that money should always be the driving force behind a business and maybe they're right. But the change in flavour did show when Kirby took over and to answer the question, that was when it soured for me.
+1 on the Warhammer Renaissance train ... it ticks all the boxes whilst making zero money. Kind of like this site.
-
But hey, some people do feel that money should always be the driving force behind a business and maybe they're right.
Yes, yes, money is eeeeeeevil, but you can not feed kids or buy houses with "having fun". So either sell out or put the fun on backburner (which does not mean to end it- just spend less energy on it). And yes, there are some lucky ones, who manage to find a golden path where they make a living while not selling out. All three exist, but the ratio is roughly about 65-30-5%.
-
Yes, yes, money is eeeeeeevil, but you can not feed kids or buy houses with "having fun". So either sell out or put the fun on backburner (which does not mean to end it- just spend less energy on it). And yes, there are some lucky ones, who manage to find a golden path where they make a living while not selling out. All three exist, but the ratio is roughly about 65-30-5%.
Maybe, maybe not. You get the impression from interviews with Ansell, Livingstone and Jackson that it was less and less fun as time went on and the business was growing beyond what they initially intended. I think they sold up mainly to avoid that big business, high pressure environment, with the money being a close runner-up.
-
It's true, but the original creators are not the ones who floated GW on the stock market, Kirby did. So it's not like becoming a cash-over-joy company just happened, it was the result of deliberate decisions made in the boardroom. The originals never seemed to see the need for GW to be anything more than a vehicle for people to have fun with great models and games, instead of a cash-generating machine that constantly needed to grow in order to feed itself.
I once saw this movie, and according to a dude named “Gordon Gecko”…
GREED IS GOOD
I can’t remember how the movie ended, but I think Charlie Sheen was in it.
-
Maybe, maybe not. You get the impression from interviews with Ansell, Livingstone and Jackson that it was less and less fun as time went on and the business was growing beyond what they initially intended. I think they sold up mainly to avoid that big business, high pressure environment, with the money being a close runner-up.
Jackson went on to do Steve Jackson Games, yeah? I loved those if that’s the same guy. He really did good stuff.
-
Jackson went on to do Steve Jackson Games, yeah? I loved those if that’s the same guy. He really did good stuff.
No - two different guys: one British and one American.
-
As a low fantasy fan, I don't know if it ever went south as much as it always had a lost opportunity feel to it. Could have been so rich and instead you get the typical fantasy "you want X you got X." Not saying that is bad, just not my thing. The Old World just doubled down on that. If you understand where I am coming from you can imagine how my heart sunk when the starter set was revealed as Bretonnians and Tomb Kings of all things.
-
Yes, yes, money is eeeeeeevil, but you can not feed kids or buy houses with "having fun". So either sell out or put the fun on backburner (which does not mean to end it- just spend less energy on it). And yes, there are some lucky ones, who manage to find a golden path where they make a living while not selling out. All three exist, but the ratio is roughly about 65-30-5%.
Well, I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone who left a high paying, soulless job selling finance to pursue a lower paying job that actually feels worthwhile. My mental health was shredded, my marriage was under strain and it took a breakdown to realise that chasing the buck isn't worth it in the end. I make enough money to pay the bills and I'm a better husband and father than I would have been otherwise. I have time, real quality time, and I have what so many others seem to break themselves striving for ... enough.
When GW chased the buck to the extreme, that was when it went south for me because it lost something, and apparently the same is true of the majority of the posters. I get that others have a different perspective because they came into the hobby at a different time, or wanted something different out of it.
-
Well, I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone who left a high paying, soulless job selling finance to pursue a lower paying job that actually feels worthwhile. My mental health was shredded, my marriage was under strain and it took a breakdown to realise that chasing the buck isn't worth it in the end. I make enough money to pay the bills and I'm a better husband and father than I would have been otherwise. I have time, real quality time, and I have what so many others seem to break themselves striving for ... enough.
What I wrote above is based on my observations, necessarily based on my surroundings- not just about "creator" hobby people but folks like fantasy book writers and shop owners too. ,,Taking a job" it is also not necessarily coal mining or overworked office biorobot; creative folks can work as illustrators, writers and shop owners simply turn towards better paying merchandise. But every life is different, if you managed to find something fun enough an good paying enough, and your family supports your choice, consider yourself among the (lucky) few.
For me job and hobby was always two different things, my job is far from wargaming, but it is kinda cool, so I do not have to spend my work time daydreaming about quitting and living of my hobby. In fact I tried contract painting once, and it was horrible, the pressure of fulfilment and the due date killed all the fun in it. But again, this is a matter of personal taste.
-
In fact I tried contract painting once, and it was horrible, the pressure of fulfilment and the due date killed all the fun in it. But again, this is a matter of personal taste.
That was my experience too!
-
It started going south when it stopped being funny, not using Gary Chalk didn't help either.
(https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1400/0*LBV5PzlACwvVGj8x)
I've still got me badge and I even bave regular like.
-
I'm definitely of the opposite bent. I like the kind of foreboding "Grimm's Fairy Tale" approach to low fantasy.
I don't think this has ever really been the case for Warhammer Fantasy, but in my head the setting is. From what I saw in white dwarf it kind of went from whimsical directly to ultra-over-the-top-grimdark, and then to bizarro world AoS.
I always enjoyed the concept that most of the Empire existed in "relative" peace, and most people didn't even believe beastmen, orcs or Chaos existed (even if their uncle died in the dark forest 12 years ago under mysterious circumstances, etc.). I like the idea that the Empire is filled with guys who have seen these evils, and few people believe they exist unless they've served in the army and fought these creatures, etc.
In the tech level of any medieval setting, I figured you're still in the area of human history (equivalent) where almost no people alive ever wandered more than 50 miles from where they were born, unless they were traders or seafarers, etc. I figure most villages exist without interacting with creatures except once in a blue moon. The idea that an average hamlet/village was raided by a dozen goblins 30 years ago, but only the old people remember, and the younger folks think they're probably making it up, etc. (until it happens again).
I like the idea that deep forests (read: most of the Empire) is still a place of foreboding and you don't risk it after dark, etc. There's maybe one trader in the village who has been the very edge of the dark lands and lived to tell about it, etc.
Now, that whole concept doesn't work with a lot of the Warhammer fantasy world (particularly since the Empire/Tilea, etc. exist in an 'Italian Wars' era instead of the more feudal/medieval Bretonnian era, etc. etc. etc.). I've always been more fascinated by the grey-haired grumpy Empire spearman who's eating mutton stew before going off into the dark woods to likely die to a random Beastman, and that's just his lot in life.
I love the idea of a traveling caravan arriving with stories of Araby, Tilea, the Wood Elf realm, or the Chaos Wastes...or someone who's ventured (and survived) exploring abandoned Dwarf halls and stealing treasure from goblins. These being the exception to the normal rule of simple farmers, tradesmen, etc.
-
I'm definitely of the opposite bent. I like the kind of foreboding "Grimm's Fairy Tale" approach to low fantasy.
I don't think this has ever really been the case for Warhammer Fantasy, but in my head the setting is. From what I saw in white dwarf it kind of went from whimsical directly to ultra-over-the-top-grimdark, and then to bizarro world AoS.
I think that’s a good summary of the life of Warhammer actually. Heavy emphasis on bizarro AoS, for me.
-
I'm definitely of the opposite bent. I like the kind of foreboding "Grimm's Fairy Tale" approach to low fantasy.
I don't think this has ever really been the case for Warhammer Fantasy, but in my head the setting is. From what I saw in white dwarf it kind of went from whimsical directly to ultra-over-the-top-grimdark, and then to bizarro world AoS.
I always enjoyed the concept that most of the Empire existed in "relative" peace, and most people didn't even believe beastmen, orcs or Chaos existed (even if their uncle died in the dark forest 12 years ago under mysterious circumstances, etc.). I like the idea that the Empire is filled with guys who have seen these evils, and few people believe they exist unless they've served in the army and fought these creatures, etc.
In the tech level of any medieval setting, I figured you're still in the area of human history (equivalent) where almost no people alive ever wandered more than 50 miles from where they were born, unless they were traders or seafarers, etc. I figure most villages exist without interacting with creatures except once in a blue moon. The idea that an average hamlet/village was raided by a dozen goblins 30 years ago, but only the old people remember, and the younger folks think they're probably making it up, etc. (until it happens again).
I like the idea that deep forests (read: most of the Empire) is still a place of foreboding and you don't risk it after dark, etc. There's maybe one trader in the village who has been the very edge of the dark lands and lived to tell about it, etc.
Now, that whole concept doesn't work with a lot of the Warhammer fantasy world (particularly since the Empire/Tilea, etc. exist in an 'Italian Wars' era instead of the more feudal/medieval Bretonnian era, etc. etc. etc.). I've always been more fascinated by the grey-haired grumpy Empire spearman who's eating mutton stew before going off into the dark woods to likely die to a random Beastman, and that's just his lot in life.
I love the idea of a traveling caravan arriving with stories of Araby, Tilea, the Wood Elf realm, or the Chaos Wastes...or someone who's ventured (and survived) exploring abandoned Dwarf halls and stealing treasure from goblins. These being the exception to the normal rule of simple farmers, tradesmen, etc.
^This entire post sums up my feelings perfectly. It's also the feel of the world that some of the early Gotrek & Felix novels have - there are dark things in the woods (or in the sewers), but the average citizen doesn't necessarily interact with them
-
I'm definitely of the opposite bent. I like the kind of foreboding "Grimm's Fairy Tale" approach to low fantasy.
I don't think this has ever really been the case for Warhammer Fantasy, but in my head the setting is. From what I saw in white dwarf it kind of went from whimsical directly to ultra-over-the-top-grimdark, and then to bizarro world AoS.
I always enjoyed the concept that most of the Empire existed in "relative" peace, and most people didn't even believe beastmen, orcs or Chaos existed (even if their uncle died in the dark forest 12 years ago under mysterious circumstances, etc.). I like the idea that the Empire is filled with guys who have seen these evils, and few people believe they exist unless they've served in the army and fought these creatures, etc.
In the tech level of any medieval setting, I figured you're still in the area of human history (equivalent) where almost no people alive ever wandered more than 50 miles from where they were born, unless they were traders or seafarers, etc. I figure most villages exist without interacting with creatures except once in a blue moon. The idea that an average hamlet/village was raided by a dozen goblins 30 years ago, but only the old people remember, and the younger folks think they're probably making it up, etc. (until it happens again).
I like the idea that deep forests (read: most of the Empire) is still a place of foreboding and you don't risk it after dark, etc. There's maybe one trader in the village who has been the very edge of the dark lands and lived to tell about it, etc.
Now, that whole concept doesn't work with a lot of the Warhammer fantasy world (particularly since the Empire/Tilea, etc. exist in an 'Italian Wars' era instead of the more feudal/medieval Bretonnian era, etc. etc. etc.). I've always been more fascinated by the grey-haired grumpy Empire spearman who's eating mutton stew before going off into the dark woods to likely die to a random Beastman, and that's just his lot in life.
I love the idea of a traveling caravan arriving with stories of Araby, Tilea, the Wood Elf realm, or the Chaos Wastes...or someone who's ventured (and survived) exploring abandoned Dwarf halls and stealing treasure from goblins. These being the exception to the normal rule of simple farmers, tradesmen, etc.
That's pretty much what the rpg, Warhammer Fantasy Role Play, worked with as the setting - the players being some of the ones 'in the know' and fighting the monsters and demons that most people didn't care to know about. Warhammer Battle diverged from this setting; armies of whatever monstrous beasts tramped all over the world looking for a fight, becoming less fun and more weird if you were aware of the previous background, as well as the cycle of overpowering, then nerfing, the favourite/least favourite armies. Whether this was because of GW going in a different direction or whether GW had just invented Warhammer competition gaming (later 40k and Blood Bowl competitions as well) I'm not sure - they seemed to happen around the same time.
-
That's pretty much what the rpg, Warhammer Fantasy Role Play, worked with as the setting - the players being some of the ones 'in the know' and fighting the monsters and demons that most people didn't care to know about. Warhammer Battle diverged from this setting; armies of whatever monstrous beasts tramped all over the world looking for a fight, becoming less fun and more weird if you were aware of the previous background, as well as the cycle of overpowering, then nerfing, the favourite/least favourite armies.
Yes, exactly; and there's also a more satisfying 'limited palette' of monsters in the WFRP version of the Old World: principally chaos creatures like mutants, beastmen and Skaven. Yes, the WFRP bestiary and some scenarios featured goblins and hobgoblins or whatever, but the emphasis was on cultists, sinister things half-glimpsed in woods and scurrying entities in the sewers.
That limited palette would later be echoed by Mordheim, where, in the original set, the only monsters were undead, Skaven, mutants, the Possessed and beastmen. Oh, and ogres - but they always seemed part of the human family, somehow.
It's fair to say that the earlier WFB assumed setting was just as colourful, if not as garish, as the later ones, with red goblins, great goblins, Slann, Amazons and fishmen, as well as rampaging armies of black orcs and so on. But the 'limited palette' bestiary of WFRP and Mordheim does seem the finest expression of the Old World to me.
-
Yes, exactly; and there's also a more satisfying 'limited palette' of monsters in the WFRP version of the Old World: principally chaos creatures like mutants, beastmen and Skaven. Yes, the WFRP bestiary and some scenarios featured goblins and hobgoblins or whatever, but the emphasis was on cultists, sinister things half-glimpsed in woods and scurrying entities in the sewers.
That limited palette would later be echoed by Mordheim, where, in the original set, the only monsters were undead, Skaven, mutants, the Possessed and beastmen. Oh, and ogres - but they always seemed part of the human family, somehow.
It's fair to say that the earlier WFB assumed setting was just as colourful, if not as garish, as the later ones, with red goblins, great goblins, Slann, Amazons and fishmen, as well as rampaging armies of black orcs and so on. But the 'limited palette' bestiary of WFRP and Mordheim does seem the finest expression of the Old World to me.
I've not really thought of it like that before but I think you're right Hobgoblin.
Chaos quickly lost its edge as all the demons became categorised and even ended up with banners and musicians... ???
-
Who doesn’t like a Nurgle horn blowing? lol
-
Who doesn’t like a Nurgle horn blowing? lol
:o ;) lol
-
Imagine the spittle from that thing... yuk!
-
Who doesn’t like a Nurgle horn blowing? lol
Eww. Is that a euphemism? That's disgustin' that is. lol
-
Yes, exactly; and there's also a more satisfying 'limited palette' of monsters in the WFRP version of the Old World: principally chaos creatures like mutants, beastmen and Skaven. Yes, the WFRP bestiary and some scenarios featured goblins and hobgoblins or whatever, but the emphasis was on cultists, sinister things half-glimpsed in woods and scurrying entities in the sewers.
I do not think that a limited palette of monsters adds to the dark fantasy tone- it is more about the overall tone and ratio of comic relief stuff like Orks. The world can be rich in monsters while Peasant Joe still not believing in them or living far away from them: if you think about it, medieval peasants also believed in monsters populating the faraway lands, they looked at the world like only their surroundings are normal (minus the witches, fairies ofc), but far beyond the seas it full of weird stuff.
Chaos quickly lost its edge as all the demons became categorised and even ended up with banners and musicians...
And giant rats and rabid dogs march in falanxes :)
-
I agree with the limited palette discussion, particularly in a small geographic area. I've never been a big fan of Lizardmen, but I was fine with them...being in Lustria. Much like you'd get in some video games, I don't want to see fur-clad Chaos Berserkers or warriors running around in Araby, etc, nor do I like the concept of Lizardmen wandering around the Dark Lands or whatever.
It begins to smack of the later 40K campaign books which always made me chuckle because - unlike the Imperial Armour books - they'd try to cram 8-9 factions into a single planet. "The Orks attacked the Imperial Guard, but little did they know it awakened a Tyranid force hiding in the sewers...but that was being hunted by Dark Eldar, fleeing from an Eldar Ranger fleet...called there by the ancient tomb of a Necron Lord who was awakening...but the Eldar threat caused Space Marines to show up!"
lol
I understand the commercial "need" to try to appeal to as many customers as possible, but it's harder to take seriously.
-
Maybe Hobgoblin. There's a difference between writing "Here be Dragons" on a map of a faraway land because you don't know what's there, because your third cousin, twice removed, overheard a bloke in a pub saying there were dragons in them faraway parts, and actually writing "Here be Dragons" because one of the big flying ba$#&£ds strafed and barbecued half your mates.
WFRP had a full bestiary, just like most fantasy rpg's, but it was the intelligent way it used those monsters and the way things might not be quite what they seemed that evoked a sense of paranoia, of sinister conspiracy. It was, and is, an excellent system if done right - done wrong it's still a good hack'n'slash dungeon bash for battle players who want a change of pace! lol
-
It begins to smack of the later 40K campaign books which always made me chuckle because - unlike the Imperial Armour books - they'd try to cram 8-9 factions into a single planet. "The Orks attacked the Imperial Guard, but little did they know it awakened a Tyranid force hiding in the sewers...but that was being hunted by Dark Eldar, fleeing from an Eldar Ranger fleet...called there by the ancient tomb of a Necron Lord who was awakening...but the Eldar threat caused Space Marines to show up!"
I can not agree more, more than 3 factions in a given conflict always feel forced. (Unless the writer is called J. R. R. Tolkien, but usually it is not :P )
-
I still re-read the Orfeo trilogy and all the Jack Yeovil books every few years. The Orfeo books, Zaragoz especially, are a great window into how chaos corrupts from within, unsettling and a little bit ‘off’. The Yeovil books are a great, gothic romps with a razor edge. Faves are Drachenfels and Beasts in Velvet. Fantastic stuff and my high point for Warhammer lore. Having said that, I can find something to love in every edition. Even AoS has its charms and has carved out its own weird lore almost from scratch. I’ve become quite fond of it!
-
I agree with the limited palette discussion, particularly in a small geographic area. I've never been a big fan of Lizardmen, but I was fine with them...being in Lustria. Much like you'd get in some video games, I don't want to see fur-clad Chaos Berserkers or warriors running around in Araby,
…
The irony there is that the historical fur clad warriors of imagination (ie vikings) were the bodyguard of the Byzantine emperor that ruled over the equivalent of Araby!
-
Eww. Is that a euphemism? That's disgustin' that is. lol
lol
It’s a gas, gas, gas
-
I still re-read the Orfeo trilogy and all the Jack Yeovil books every few years. The Orfeo books, Zaragoz especially, are a great window into how chaos corrupts from within, unsettling and a little bit ‘off’. The Yeovil books are a great, gothic romps with a razor edge. Faves are Drachenfels and Beasts in Velvet. Fantastic stuff and my high point for Warhammer lore. Having said that, I can find something to love in every edition. Even AoS has its charms and has carved out its own weird lore almost from scratch. I’ve become quite fond of it!
Sadly I do not own all the Jack Yeovil books that Kim Newman wrote for Warhammer, but I do have some of his Diogenes series and all of the Anno Dracula books as well as, at least, some of the Warhammer books - Beasts in Velvet is superb, as are the Genevieve Diuedonné books.
Those early books by accomplished writers (rather than the modern ones which I find to be little better than poor fanfiction on the whole) are great Warhammer books and stand up as pretty good fantasy literature, not something often said about game tie-ins. lol
-
Yeah the early writers were stellar. Gav Thorpe … can’t write!
I went to university with David Annandale, who has done some of the Horus Heresy books! Even in university he was publishing for “Fangoria” magazine. He did his MA on the Marquis de Sade… in French. Very brilliant person, with more than a hint of darkness. It was kind of 50/50; super successful horror writer, or … something … worse lol
-
The irony there is that the historical fur clad warriors of imagination (ie vikings) were the bodyguard of the Byzantine emperor that ruled over the equivalent of Araby!
Nothing ironic...they took off their coats! I know vikings/Rus had plenty of interaction with the mediterranean/middle east...but be polite and remove your furs! lol
-
Nothing ironic...they took off their coats! I know vikings/Rus had plenty of interaction with the mediterranean/middle east...but be polite and remove your furs! lol
It’s warm there - of course one would take off their fur.
-
Those early books by accomplished writers (rather than the modern ones which I find to be little better than poor fanfiction on the whole) are great Warhammer books and stand up as pretty good fantasy literature, not something often said about game tie-ins. lol
My memory is those early books also didn't spell everything out, they were very much written from the WFRP parochial perspective rather than the wide-scope WFB perspective on the world. They left lots of the world up to your own imagination, rather than filling in everything right up to the edges. That's part of why they were so well written - the focus was on telling a story, not describing a world.
For me, the main thing that has kept me interested in GW's products is ignoring Black Library novels. The setting is great (esp. 40k hive worlds) when it isn't overly explained.
-
Ah yes. But the books I was discussing were written before Black Library began, before WFRP even - only with hindsight could they be described as being from a 'WFRP perspective', not from the time they were written; these were books written for the Warhammer world, undivided into the WFB lore and the WFRP lore. The 'Black Library' books have all (or mostly) been written a long time after the division between the different 'lore' or backgrounds - about the only series to bridge the gap was the excellent 'Gotrek and Felix' novels - which still used the 'WFRP perspective' - the series was started as one of the first books published and is still being released, although I did lose a bit of interest after Bill King stopped writing them - the new guy is nowhere near as good, he just doesn't have the same flair, imagination and dedication as King showed.
-
Nothing ironic...they took off their coats! I know vikings/Rus had plenty of interaction with the mediterranean/middle east...but be polite and remove your furs! lol
Also they probably weren't dressed in furs to begin with, that being a later invention along with horned helmets.
-
I started with 4th edition so that probably affects my viewpoint, but my sense is that 1-3rd editions gradually introduced the core elements of the setting and added place names and some key characters, but even in 3rd it was mostly open space to set your own stories. 4th edition onward had the individual army books with the chronology and history sections, which gradually got more elaborate as the various writers added their own spin as the army books were redone every edition or two. At some point it felt like there wasn't as much space to do your own thing and tell your own stories.
The bigger problem is that around 7th or 8th there was a shift from the background/fluff/lore being essentially a static setting to an overarching narrative and a plot that was advancing -- I personally don't like this because it reduces the whole world down to what a few characters are doing, and also that overarching narrative was usually not very well written. This culminated in the end times and has been the standard approach since in Age of Sigmar and 40k.
-
I think that, maybe around 5th?, GW started doing the annual campaigns booklets which affected more and more of the Old World as they grew more popular and which, in turn, moved the chronology forward. Cause and effect: without the campaigns bringing in more players and groups, Warhammer might not be as popular as it is today, but the downside is that GW felt the need to acknowledge the campaigns and the players so put the campaign results in as a new series of events. In some ways they may well have been busy painting themselves into a corner, but they only have themselves to blame if they couldn't foresee the consequences of their own actions.
-
5th or more like late 6th? I don’t remember them until the campaigns which were supposed to affect the timelines started happening. Of course, they almost never did anything to the timeline lol
-
This is a very interesting discussion - personally I'm both very much removed from the Old World setting, but also own and play several armies based on it.
I started out back in WFB 2nd days, when the setting was broad brush, and had interesting and unique ideas like Lustiria and Slaan. But also had staples of fantasy like Orcs and Elves. This all worked fine with the hodge podge of AD&D, LoTR (books) and whatever else we threw in to our games.
I did play a fair bit of WHFRP a few years later, and liked that take on the Old World.
Then skip forward about 15 years and I got back into gaming via Warmaster - which had lots of armies based on the Old World - but (at least from my perspective) I didn't need any great reason for them to fight against each other. And we added on variants of our own anyway.
Some of my gaming group of been GW players since the 80s and have been hugely into WFB and 40k and are really into some parts of the lore (I think largely from 30+ years ago).
What is interesting in the above is that it seems when GW started putting together big campaigns to generate interest and get all the different factions and races involved this is when it started to go wrong for a lot of people. Feels they perhaps missed a trick here of having things happen at different points in the history of the Old World, and having some stuff that was of less global impact. If you look at historical gaming, people play games from all different periods, some of which have much bigger world impacts than others.
But also as you go further back in history historical players are quite happy to fight two highly implausible sides against each other. Feels GW could have had campaigns that cover some factions, and just let the players have free form battles as well, without everything having to key to the same tight timeline.
And with historical gaming there are periods and geographies that allow much looser interpretations of history as too most people their knowledge is quite low (eg Back of Beyond in the 1920s) or the war was so vast there are plenty of options that aren't just the key battles (and even the key battles can get morphed to be playable).
I think my conclusion is GW needed to look at history to leave some space for interpretation, look at wider gaming to see everything doesn't need to be prescribed, and even look at their own back catalogue to see how they started.
-
Never been as invested in the old world as I was in 40k for a while. The time which in my mind represents the most fun version of the Old World must be 4th/5th. The most dreadful idea they ever got for either Warhammer or 40k was 'advancing the timeline'.
-
It started going south when it stopped being funny, not using Gary Chalk didn't help either.
(https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1400/0*LBV5PzlACwvVGj8x)
I've still got me badge and I even bave regular like.
To be a pendent Orcs Drift wasn't set in the Old World they moved it to the New World becuase the setting of Ramalja didn't fit the lore that had already beem written about the Old World. So does Orcs Drift count as part of the Old World setting any more than Lustria or Cathay?
-
About the time this dropped to accommodate Warhammer tournament play that started GW down the endless madness of trying to constantly balance a fantasy game system, to make it fair for competition gaming, rather than narrative gaming.
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/tyzFF6iTvQJnvim1uxZJ7w__itemrep/img/aDEvXi46WFykg7hmMKM5dWX-eUA=/fit-in/246x300/filters:strip_icc()/pic55754.jpg)
-
For me it was the introduction of Named characters .
I don't mean the odd one with previous scenario packs (I.E. Kremlo the Slann, The lichemaster and the like)
I mean the ones that came around 4th ed WHFB and around there.
At the time I wasn't sure why, but I gradually realised it was because the "official" setting had lost the feeling of making your own stories, and more like you were playing a part in someone else's stories.
-
“Herohammer” reached peak insanity during 5th edition. Among my gaming group, we placed our own limitations on using them too often - they could change the game completely by themselves. One man or elf army.
-
Every army had to have a special character. I know its 40k but I remember Jervis in one battle report saying his ork army was always led by Ghazghkull...err...then something is kinda wrong Jervis...
-
Ah, the old "Why is Guilliman leading these two tactical squads in a 500 point game..." conundrum.
While I don't play The Old World, I have seen several channels doing a voluntary "low fantasy" version, which appears to be some kind of limit on monsters and wizards, which is kinda cool.
In my game, which we're playing in the old Warhammer Fantasy world, there is the concept of "Legendary Heroes" (which would represent your named heroes in the setting, I suppose), but they're randomly generated as a victory reward and you only get them for one game. It should strike a nice balance.
-
In my game, which we're playing in the old Warhammer Fantasy world, there is the concept of "Legendary Heroes" (which would represent your named heroes in the setting, I suppose), but they're randomly generated as a victory reward and you only get them for one game. It should strike a nice balance.
I like that idea, kinda like a guest spot on a sit com or something.
-
At the time I wasn't sure why, but I gradually realised it was because the "official" setting had lost the feeling of making your own stories, and more like you were playing a part in someone else's stories.
^ ^ ^ This!
-
Every army had to have a special character. I know its 40k but I remember Jervis in one battle report saying his ork army was always led by Ghazghkull...err...then something is kinda wrong Jervis...
Thou shalt not besmirch the memory of Jervis Johanssen!!! He was one of the best ones. Ghazghkull? As an Ork player, it was whatever? A cool character - with Makari the Standard Grot? Hells yah.
You’re lost, egg man! lol
-
I still re-read the Orfeo trilogy and all the Jack Yeovil books every few years. The Orfeo books, Zaragoz especially, are a great window into how chaos corrupts from within, unsettling and a little bit ‘off’. The Yeovil books are a great, gothic romps with a razor edge. Faves are Drachenfels and Beasts in Velvet. Fantastic stuff and my high point for Warhammer lore. Having said that, I can find something to love in every edition. Even AoS has its charms and has carved out its own weird lore almost from scratch. I’ve become quite fond of it!
Same. Zaragoz and Drachenfels are really good stories even if you don’t care for Warhammer. Those and The Enemy Within campaign for WFRP are my Old World.
-
Thou shalt not besmirch the memory of Jervis Johanssen!!! He was one of the best ones. Ghazghkull? As an Ork player, it was whatever? A cool character - with Makari the Standard Grot? Hells yah.
You’re lost, egg man! lol
lol
-
I personally don't like this because it reduces the whole world down to what a few characters are doing, and also that overarching narrative was usually not very well written. This culminated in the end times and has been the standard approach since in Age of Sigmar and 40k.
This.
I had some thinking lately, why is Trench Crusade 1000 times more grimdark, than 40k? It is essentially the same thing, basically a ripoff 40k, but still. And the secret is that 40k became a hero fantasy like World of Warcraft, the setting is just the background behind the ,,which primarch we resurrect next" drama*. In TC there are no named caharcters, no centerpiece dramatic events (yet...): it is just the dark, cruel world and the long war with all its weight, crushing everything beneath.
*which also means an inflation of climaxes. Not just we have a mediocre story, but also a story without any climax. Yes, we save the world, until the next campaign when we have to do it again. It is just not interesting.
-
Every army had to have a special character. I know its 40k but I remember Jervis in one battle report saying his ork army was always led by Ghazghkull...err...then something is kinda wrong Jervis...
Ghazghkull was pretty unusual as a special character though, in that his abilities captured "Orkiness" so well (at least to me). Another way of putting Jervis's remark is asking "Would you want to play Orks if everyone didn't get to yell Waaagh and turn into a green tide of death once per game?" There was something not quite right about facing an Ork army that didn't do that lol
All the other special characters tended to ruin games rather than enhance them. To go back to the OP's original question, Tyrion and Teclis were part of the reason I lost interest in the Old World.
-
This.
I had some thinking lately, why is Trench Crusade 1000 times more grimdark, than 40k? It is essentially the same thing, basically a ripoff 40k, but still. And the secret is that 40k became a hero fantasy like World of Warcraft, the setting is just the background behind the ,,which primarch we resurrect next" drama*. In TC there are no named caharcters, no centerpiece dramatic events (yet...): it is just the dark, cruel world and the long war with all its weight, crushing everything beneath.
*which also means an inflation of climaxes. Not just we have a mediocre story, but also a story without any climax. Yes, we save the world, until the next campaign when we have to do it again. It is just not interesting.
Agreed. Plus every drama had to be bigger and badder than the previous one, had to 'top' the last one. The game writers can't see past this years drama, can't see the consequences of trying to make the disaster more and more galaxy-shattering - eventually you run out of galaxy to shatter.
-
Agreed. Plus every drama had to bigger and badder than the previous one, had to 'top' the last one. The game writers can't see past this years drama, can't see the consequences of trying to make the disaster more and more galaxy-shattering - eventually you run out of galaxy to shatter.
And that’s how the Age of Sigmar came about: they literally blew the entire world up, to start over. The ultimate reboot. Although vastly inferior and immensely unappealing - but “fantasy sigmarines” now!
-
And that’s how the Age of Sigmar came about: they literally blew the entire world up, to start over. The ultimate reboot. Although vastly inferior and immensely unappealing - but “fantasy sigmarines” now!
And the moment the world blew up you already know that this is only the beginning, you have mere months till the next world shaking danger :P
The problem is, that WHF/40k is not a game setting any more, but an IP. A consciously groomed and nurtured IP with many tits to milk beyond wargaming: books, computer games, selling license rights for merch, dreaming of Hollywood or at least a tv show. A wargame setting needs only to be a setting for your own stories. An IP needs professional stories and posterboys- so they were introduced. It also has to appeal the general public (pleasing their shitty taste and carefully censoring the sensitive topics), so they made it fit.
Agreed. Plus every drama had to bigger and badder than the previous one, had to 'top' the last one.
See Marvel/DC as the rock bottom: SuperBatSpiderman already saved the world 100 times by 1950, in 2025 they are beyond 23424 reboots, 3423423 prequels, 23213 side characters (there are more superheroes than normal people especially that New York is destroyed in every 3 weeks), so now we are having alternate universes.
-
(https://theenemywithinremixed.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/john-blanche-tew.jpg)
-
Every army had to have a special character. I know its 40k but I remember Jervis in one battle report saying his ork army was always led by Ghazghkull...err...then something is kinda wrong Jervis...
I’m pretty sure Jervis created Ghazghull as a character, so this gets a pass from me. Ghaz is ‘his guy’!
-
It never went south for me. I was always able to abide the high fantasy and low fantasy mingling as it was the dirty human cities that really reflected low fantasy. The glittering realms of the elves and such just didn’t make it down to the common citizen of the empire.
The fantasy role-play game, realms of chaos, and eventually Mordheim solidified that focus.
At least it worked for me.
-
"The glittering realms of the elves." This is not something I've encountered in the Old World setting, where the High Elves inhabit the slowly decaying cities of their once-great ancestors, retreating into debauchery and drug-induced fantasy rather than face the reality of their decline and the ever-increasing incursions of chaos. If you read the books, the elves are as much of a low fantasy creation as any of the other races (the fact that the elves appear to be based on Moorcock's Melniboneans notwithstanding). In actual fact, it's some of the inhabitants of those 'dirty human cities' that still strive against the Old World perils that offer the best stories, rather than the elves who gave up a long time ago.
[This message has been brought to you by the Altdorf tourist information office]
-
"The glittering realms of the elves." This is not something I've encountered in the Old World setting, where the High Elves inhabit the slowly decaying cities of their once-great ancestors, retreating into debauchery and drug-induced fantasy rather than face the reality of their decline and the ever-increasing incursions of chaos. If you read the books, the elves are as much of a low fantasy creation as any of the other races (the fact that the elves appear to be based on Moorcock's Melniboneans notwithstanding). In actual fact, it's some of the inhabitants of those 'dirty human cities' that still strive against the Old World perils that offer the best stories, rather than the elves who gave up a long time ago.
[This message has been brought to you by the Altdorf tourist information office]
Quite I remember reading the Novel Gilead's Blood along time ago that painted the elves in such a light.
-
I've found reading this thread to be really interesting, thanks for all of the responses and to the original poster for bringing it up!
To throw my two cents in re: the original poster's question (and this will basically echo some things that have already been mentioned, but whatever, I like to write about this hobby)- I think there have been numerous times over the years when I've read something or seen something "official" publications that I didn't like or didn't jibe with the version of the world that was in my head.
I remember having a rather uncharitable reaction to the mechanical horse of 7th edition Empire, and I never liked that at some point the Dark Elf society moved to completely unrealistic level of unsustainability. I can't remember what it was but at some point some numbers got thrown around that made it sound like they were sacrificing the entire population of the Old World on a weekly basis- I liked them better as villains when I found them believable as a functioning society.
While these things would bug me a bit, I've always found it okay to just ignore them and get on with our games, so the Warhammer World always worked as a good jumping off point, despite the parts that I didn't go for. I didn't read the End Times, and I felt disappointed to see them blow up the world (as one does when those sorts of things happen), but I've actually found it liberating in the long run. It kind of got me to think of our campaign world not as the Warhammer world at all, but our own that just happens to share some striking resemblances to theirs. I think that years ago I would have wondered how to tie things in to changes in the "official" world, but now I don't have to do that.
In our game, there were no End Times; if we want to roleplay something around the assassination of the Emperor, or have the Empire break down into civil war, we can do that. If we want a new Chaos God (or an old one) we can bring it in and shake things up. We've been on Albion for years now, though it looks a lot more like the Albion from the "Storm Warriors" novel than from the Albion campaign booklet. And we've gone ahead and pulled background and monsters from other games into ours without batting an eyelash, as it's our world that grows as we play it.
Anyway, all that is to say I've found picking and choosing what we like for background and making up a fair bit is a great way to inspire immersive games- if the official publisher does something you don't like, it doesn't mean you have to ditch the stuff you do like (though go right ahead if that's what you want to do- it's your game!). Cheers!
-
This question has continued to bounce around my noggin.
I'm not sure the Old World I remember ever really existed outside my head. Plenty changed over the years but I don't think I ever really fell out of love with the setting. A lot of it had good points and bad but there were still nuggets of gold in there.
I think what really killed it off for me as a game was the shear number of minis needed; the idea of a mass battle game was cool and a completed army looked cool too but damn that was a lot of money and effort. Of course lots of minis meant more time needed for setting up and putting away so it just kinda became a drag. Combined with rules creep, special characters as well as special rules for everyone it just kinda sucked for me. So I left it behind. 2nd Ed 4k was more appealing and needed far less models, though the same game problems very quickly assailed that too.
The sculpts seemed to go backwards in quality. Now I know about the Ansell sell-off and the lack of sculptors it explains things. It still seems odd to me that so many people rave about Gary Morley's sculpts but they were chunky and lack elegance compared to those of Jes.
I guess what I wanted and would still quite like is a skirmish game of around 20 minis per side set in the WFB world with a focus on small battles rather than the gang-like warfare of Mordheim. The WFB Skirmish booklet from 6th looked fun so it'd be easy to pull in some of those elements too for a more narrative game. I'd also like to see it be a ruleset that doesn't seem to be emulating computer games too.
I have similar issues with 40k and so for the last few years have been playing around with my own ruleset that could be used for both...still it'd be cool to see something along these lines that's official and, most importantly, have an accompanying range of kit-bash friendly minis. A chap can dream.
-
In our game, there were no End Times; if we want to roleplay something around the assassination of the Emperor, or have the Empire break down into civil war, we can do that. If we want a new Chaos God (or an old one) we can bring it in and shake things up. We've been on Albion for years now, though it looks a lot more like the Albion from the "Storm Warriors" novel than from the Albion campaign booklet. And we've gone ahead and pulled background and monsters from other games into ours without batting an eyelash, as it's our world that grows as we play it.
Anyway, all that is to say I've found picking and choosing what we like for background and making up a fair bit is a great way to inspire immersive games- if the official publisher does something you don't like, it doesn't mean you have to ditch the stuff you do like (though go right ahead if that's what you want to do- it's your game!). Cheers!
Totally agree - this is how we've ended up going.It's far more .. fereeing... I suppose is the best word for it I suppose...
-
Totally agree - this is how we've ended up going.It's far more .. fereeing... I suppose is the best word for it I suppose...
is that a word?
-
is that a word?
It would be if I'd spelled it correctly! :facepalm:
It's more Freeing!
-
I am always curious how much impact tournament gaming has had on the development of GW's in-game universes.
HerbertTarkel mentions getting out of Warhammer when Age of Sigmar was released but I know quite a few players who had the same physical investment in the Old World game (in terms of armies) who moved right into playing Age of Sigmar. HerbertTarkel probably knows fellows like Paul from Calgary who either rebased the armies they could or just started painting new armies when Age of Sigmar was announced.
Those players were heavily invested in the tournament scene (not sure if Herb ever was) and I think that they were primarily interested in participating in that scene. The game seemed to be means of participating in it but not the aim in and of itself.
Which might explain why they put up with how tedious the Warhammer rules were :-)
The folks just seem to roll along with wherever the game goes because that is where the tournaments go and that is what their hobby actually is. Competing at tournaments.
This seems to be in contrast to folks like Frugalmax who appears to have a group they play with and they don't rely on official changes in the background material.
I suspect the difference is where you are getting your hobby energy from. I think we see folks playing games with miniatures and assume that it is the same hobby energy that we get. The miniatures play a different role for different folks. HerbertTarkel mentions how well painted his forces were. I tend to rush through paint jobs because I just want a painted force on the table. Same models. Different focus.
So the impact of changes in the background and the rules really can have wildly different effects. Frugalmax just shrugs and goes on doing what they were doing and folks like Paul in Calgary just roll with the changes because that is where the tournament scene is going to go.
-
I had some thinking lately, why is Trench Crusade 1000 times more grimdark, than 40k? It is essentially the same thing, basically a ripoff 40k
Is it? How so?
The problem is, that WHF/40k is not a game setting any more, but an IP.
It is but I think that the era of drunken reprobates in the backroom making up background material based on gay jokes and political satire had ended decades ago. As soon as middle-class moms started coming into GW stores complaining about content they started watering everything down. That and the weirdoes who thought that the Imperium were the good guys.
-
You really will have to back that last little lot up with some evidence, I'm afraid. The humour, as far as I'm aware was never based on 'gay jokes and political satire' and the whole damn ironic twist of the 40k background is that the Imperium DO see themselves as the good guys, despite the rigid control. I think you give a few, woke, middle-America housewives entirely too much credit on that front - if GW watered everything down, it was probably as a result of selling to a far bigger audience than before and trying to please as many customers as possible.
-
You really will have to back that last little lot up with some evidence, I'm afraid. The humour, as far as I'm aware was never based on 'gay jokes and political satire'
Lion'el Johnson and the Dark Angels are based on a homoerotic poem written by Lionel Johnson. Not a crude 'gay joke' but a gay joke for sure.
https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/librarium/lionel_johnson.php
https://vqa.dickinson.edu/poem/dark-angel
And Rogue Traderis heavily influenced by the politics of the era. There are a lot of references for that.
I think you give a few, woke, middle-America housewives entirely too much credit on that front - if GW watered everything down, it was probably as a result of selling to a far bigger audience than before and trying to please as many customers as possible.
That is really the same thing though isn't it?
-
You really will have to back that last little lot up with some evidence, I'm afraid. The humour, as far as I'm aware was never based on 'gay jokes and political satire' and the whole damn ironic twist of the 40k background is that the Imperium DO see themselves as the good guys, despite the rigid control. I think you give a few, woke, middle-America housewives entirely too much credit on that front - if GW watered everything down, it was probably as a result of selling to a far bigger audience than before and trying to please as many customers as possible.
the pygmies were very dodgy... and I have some...
and the Fimir rape subplot was adult dark and not teen dark
-
Lion'el Johnson and the Dark Angels are based on a homoerotic poem written by Lionel Johnson. Not a crude 'gay joke' but a gay joke for sure.
https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/librarium/lionel_johnson.php
https://vqa.dickinson.edu/poem/dark-angel
And Rogue Traderis heavily influenced by the politics of the era. There are a lot of references for that.
That is really the same thing though isn't it?
I think you are reading more into this than there actually is - sure the Dark Angel/Lionel Johnson reference is interesting but is not a 'gay joke' by any means - the whole religious/desire text of the poem is an interesting background to the chapter but does not have to be interpreted as some sort of blatant homoerotic poem; there are other interpretations without needing to draw upon the authors sexuality (otherwise everything written by Walt Whitman or Emily Dickinson would have to be re-appraised!). And no, not really - trying to please everybody is not the same as being pressured into appeasement by a tiny minority.
-
I think you are reading more into this than there actually is - sure the Dark Angel/Lionel Johnson reference is interesting but is not a 'gay joke' by any means - the whole religious/desire text of the poem is an interesting background to the chapter but does not have to be interpreted as some sort of blatant homoerotic poem; there are other interpretations without needing to draw upon the authors sexuality (otherwise everything written by Walt Whitman or Emily Dickinson would have to be re-appraised!). And no, not really - trying to please everybody is not the same as being pressured into appeasement by a tiny minority.
Well we can have different opinions. :-)
-
the pygmies were very dodgy... and I have some...
and the Fimir rape subplot was adult dark and not teen dark
Yeah it was, but that was dropped fairly rapidly and replaced by them having a matriarchal society I believe. It would be like remembering the entire Roman Empire just for the rape of the Sabine women.
The pygmies, though, were pretty indefensible even when they were made, although I've seen worse by other manufacturers since that time.
-
Well we can have different opinions. :-)
Of course we can, indeed should. And thank you for raising the 'Dark Angel' subject - I knew it was a reference to something but I didn't bother to find out until now! ;)
-
This is one of the most interesting postings I have read recently.
I got into WFB 1st edition after a period of " Prehammer " fantasy mass battles but left after 2nd only to return at 6th edition with my 2 sons. Needed a colourful alternative to endless camo painting in all scales.
Several of my armies could not appear @ a shop as they were mostly historical Renaissance figures.
The arrival of the empire plastic gargoyle infantry was the start of the decline for me. Also that the rules were so what clunky when staging a large battle.
War hammer 1 K (aos) was the final nail in the coffin for me, having a vast empire army , also a vast elf and lizard men (my sons').
But saying that some of the new Cities figures have a decidedly Michael Moorcock feel to them.
Now I have gone down my own rabbit hole with the Von Trinkenessen ChroniclesA renaissance fantasy set against the backdrop of the Italian Wars before Pavia / more Da Vinci's Demons than George Gush
Too much water under the bridge and many have moved on.
-
And thank you for raising the 'Dark Angel' subject - I knew it was a reference to something but I didn't bother to find out until now! ;)
The reason I think it was a joke was that I recall Rick P. mentioning it as a bit of 'English schoolboy humour' in an interview. And it strikes me as being something that a college educated English geek would include as 'humour'.
-
The reason I think it was a joke was that I recall Rick P. mentioning it as a bit of 'English schoolboy humour' in an interview. And it strikes me as being something that a college educated English geek would include as 'humour'.
Thats why I think you're reading too much into this - 40k lore is littered with obscure references which could be described as 'schoolboy humour' - having the primarch of the Night Lords named after the antagonist in Joseph Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' is another one, but also not a 'gay joke'.
Jagatai Khan, named after Chagatai Khan, a son of Temujin or Ghenghis Khan is another - there are loads of references.
-
Not just 40K. Oldhammer loved a play on words too: Eeza Ugezod, Yaskin Forit, "Mhinz Abeir" & "Z'yor Rond" etc.
-
Not just 40K. Oldhammer loved a play on words too: Eeza Ugezod, Yaskin Forit, "Mhinz Abeir" & "Z'yor Rond" etc.
Not to mention Emperor Karl Franz, named after the Hapsburg ruler of of the Austria-Hungarian Empire! lol
-
I’m pretty sure Jervis created Ghazghull as a character, so this gets a pass from me. Ghaz is ‘his guy’!
Andy Chambers produced the first version, rolling up a warboss for the sample Goff list in Ere we go.
Unless there's an earlier reference I've missed.
As for the topic, the setting probably started going off course for me with 6th edition, the armies were becoming more compartmentalised, especially the Empire, and they tried to move the timelines along, starting the problem of writing themselves into a corner. But I still like the world and read the old novels and such, but for gaming I'm firmly sat in 4th/5th edition. :)
Quick aside but I do think the 4th edition Undead army book is the best from a background perspective, such a massive amount of fluff and worth reading even if you do nothing withe rest of the book.
-
Not to mention Emperor Karl Franz, named after the Hapsburg ruler of of the Austria-Hungarian Empire! lol
I'm reminded of a quote attributed to James Nicoll: "We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
With that in mind, let's throw Altdorf and Marienburg - both real world places - into the mix.
-
The idea of chaos and the chaos gods was borrowed completely from Michael Moorcock (although they did use different names for the gods, borrowing Nurgle from Mesopotamia, Slaanesh and Tzeentch being made up, unsure where Khorne came from). The original idea of the gods of law opposing the gods of chaos (pure Moorcock) was dropped in favour of just the 5 chaos gods (yes 5 - Malal was dropped soon afterwards).
I don't think it's terribly unfair to say that the Warhammer lore was a hodge-podge of borrowed ideas that they spent years hammering into some sort of rough shape, then spent even more years hammering it back out of shape again! lol
-
I definitely prefer earlier versions of the setting.
Generally I prefer things more subtle... less OTT... and slightly more in line with the RPG version (since that's what I engaged with first). So fewer giant monsters and warmachines, I'm not sure Skaven should even be in massed battles.
As things went on, and EVERYTHING got bigger and wilder... the Emperor on a griffon and such... too bright colors... I just stopped paying attention and stuck to my own notions/preferences.
-
And thats the break point, as has been mentioned, they borrowed stuff - fine - bashed it together into a fun fantasyscape for customers to imagine into and by their stuff to represent stuff in it.
Then - they defined and named all the characters you should use all the time, so everyone has the same generals etc.
Then they kept changing it to frequently and finally, destroyed it all in a cataclysmic blah blah so they could properly copyright, all the stuff they borrowed under new names..
ANd finally, have brought back the old world in a new way, so that its borrowed from themselves instead of other sources and copyright/protected it...good long term planning.
I still sticking with 3rd edition ;D
I can afford that.
-
... unsure where Khorne came from...
A large grain native to the Americas that unleashes chaos on the digestive tract? sorry, I'll see myself out...
-
A large grain native to the Americas that unleashes chaos on the digestive tract? sorry, I'll see myself out...
That's quite a-maize-ing. I was thinking it might have been a brand name for fake meat products, which might account for his followers being so aggressive and going beserk! lol
-
Is it? How so?
Besides being about religious fanatics fighting against literal hell creatures in a ww1 like endless war with modern weapons but with strong medieval vibes? Dunno... lol
That and the weirdoes who thought that the Imperium were the good guys.
There are 3 levels of perceiving 40k lore
Kid: "Yay, Imerium is the good guys!"
Edgy teen: "Yuck, Imperium is evil."
Adult: "Imperium is us. With all of our flaws, which is quite often ugly. But still, it is us. You wanted a dramatic conflict, so here it is."
With that in mind, let's throw Altdorf and Marienburg - both real world places - into the mix.
There was that guy a few days ago, who wanted to make his own aeww2 setting, and folks asked him why the real stuff is not interesting enough. I wanted to share there, but maybe here it is also ontopic: when people want fantasy, they never mean real fantasy like Salvador Dalí on the 60 days psychotic mushrooms-only diet fantasy. They always want a mix of real word stuff AND fantasy. So you can have 1000 pages fantasy XXth century lore, but I bet that on the second page there will already be a Stahlhelm wearing bloke called Hans-Jürgen. Similarly, i've never seen a fantasy world without vikings, fachwerkhaus Hansa merchant cities and Far Eastern dudes with dragons.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/4508d09e-3c64-492e-9e9b-14330a3c3c03/d8svc4c-9d73c373-aaa6-4077-8260-497694cd71db.jpg/v1/fill/w_1600,h_960,q_75,strp/map_of_clichea_by_sarithus_d8svc4c-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9OTYwIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvNDUwOGQwOWUtM2M2NC00OTJlLTllOWItMTQzMzBhM2MzYzAzXC9kOHN2YzRjLTlkNzNjMzczLWFhYTYtNDA3Ny04MjYwLTQ5NzY5NGNkNzFkYi5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9MTYwMCJ9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl19.6BgdqP8QXwmDjUgsKoBdws0r_bepzsW_pv8MWi53TbQ)
-
Clichea, yes very apt here.
-
Freddy - I remember that conversation, I got the impression he wanted something like 40k dressed up in ww2 clothing!
As to a fantasy world bereft of those clichés you mention, have you ever visited Anyaral, the world of Twilight?
-
40k lore is littered with obscure references which could be described as 'schoolboy humour'
I painted the original 'Tragedy of McDeath' mins for Richard Hale a few years back and the weak puns had me face-palming on a regular basis. The Treeman named Clinty, who of course lives in ... Clinty's Wood. The Knight named Dart of Harkness, Lady McDeath's Chaos Hound named ... Spot ("Out, damned Spot!"), the clan McArno ... it goes on. They were having fun.
Malal was dropped soon afterwards).
That's what Malal wants everyone to think ... their time cometh ...
-
Besides being about religious fanatics fighting against literal hell creatures in a ww1 like endless war with modern weapons but with strong medieval vibes?
The daemons in 40K aren't "literal hell creatures", there aren't really any modern weapons in Trench ZCrusade (the best anti-tank weapon in the game is a two-handed sword) and I wouldn't really describe 40K as having a WW1 vibe with the exception of the Death Korps.
I think you may be using the term 'rip-off' a bit loosely. Have you actually looked at Trench Crusade?
-
Oh dear. Trench Crusade isn't really a 'rip-off' as such, it's more of an homage to the way 40k is often portrayed, especially the Imperial Guard. After all, read some of the books - the Ciaphas Cain or First and Only series and what do the Guard do when facing an enemy advance? They dig trenches! The vehicles and the formations are very reminiscent of those in WW1 wargame rules (the GW historical 'The Great War' could've been used as a straight-up Imperial Guard game with few modifications, other than the names). Freddy isn't criticising Trench Crusade so much as 40k - after all, that's where the term 'trench crusade' originally comes from! lol
There are some truly original game systems out there, often with great backgrounds that owe little, if anything, to historical rw settings. Warhammer and it's derivatives have never been among them - they grab background ideas from all over and, as long as you don't look to closely, it seems to work (well, GW are making a mint out of it). lol
-
The daemons in 40K aren't "literal hell creatures"
They came from the warp, the dimension of lost souls and hungering gods. And their imagery (visual, conceptual and in the world itself) is based on medieval devil pictures. Besides that, they have nothing to do with hell o_o
there aren't really any modern weapons in Trench ZCrusade
You really missed the part with the rocket propelled grenades and mech armoured infantry, didn't you?
(the best anti-tank weapon in the game is a two-handed sword)
Opening tanks with magical swords is totally not something we ever saw in 40k, yes :) In my warband the best weapons against heavy armor are sachtel charges and machine guns btw.
Have you actually looked at Trench Crusade?
I have a thread about it here, I am actually playing 2 TC campaigns at once. I not just know it very closely, but I also enjoy it very much. But I rest my case, Trench Crusade was conceived by someone who apparently slept a lot with IA5 Siege of Vraks under his pillow.
-
Freddy isn't criticising Trench Crusade so much as 40k - after all, that's where the term 'trench crusade' originally comes from! lol
Trench Crusade ,,borrows" from 40k, but it borrows its best moments 40k itself starts to forget. Yes, this is a criticism as much against 40k as against TC.
There are some truly original game systems out there, often with great backgrounds that owe little, if anything, to historical rw settings. Warhammer and it's derivatives have never been among them - they grab background ideas from all over and, as long as you don't look to closely, it seems to work (well, GW are making a mint out of it). lol
40k itself is based on scrap heap of stolen ideas, no doubt. But these ideas were melted and forged into something really unique and characteristic. I really like what 40k is- too bad that it started to turn into something different.
-
When it stopped being a setting and became a fixed story.
A setting has characters that you may or may not feature, the plot is not fixed, its a back ground to place my an your story.
But well there old world and 40K have moved towards being a fixed story, i'll blame books, tournaments, story time an the need for new stuff.
The book by them self's are blame less (these always some where to fit the story), the tournaments can only have the issue an every one has get involved in a multi way battle.
But time, warhammer an 40k was fixed for decades in a status quo of 2 minutes to midnight on the story's dooms day clock, there was little time left an every thing had to fit in the narrow span of time.
Add the need for new stuff like super prime space marines why? well many army's had a core of units that was lets face it a simple things people had loads of, a skeleton warrior is skeleton warrior an an orc is an orc.
Well add some more stuff and move the date forwards but that clock is moving forwards also with tournaments an story, slowly year by year.
It got silly as well a massive galaxy shaping battle would happen every year or so an well nothing changed, the warhammer 40k universe i encountered in 2000 was the same in 2015.
-
A large grain native to the Americas that unleashes chaos on the digestive tract? sorry, I'll see myself out...
I assumed from Crom, the god of Conan?
-
GW must be doing something right as I’ve been digging through lead piles for a Bretonnian army. First time in years! They’re from the era that was right in the middle of special character madness but I’m grateful though as it got us the Green Knight, one of the best ever GW minis.
-
You can still get the old Citadel 'Normans' from Foundry, which might be the generation before this but have a similar vibe.
-
but I’m grateful though as it got us the Green Knight, one of the best ever GW minis.
It's a great mini and naturally it was a common sight in Golden Demons and White Dwarf galleries. Many other 5th ed era characters were a bit of "stick figures with trinkets", if you know what I mean, but this one had actual character, pose, and sensible details. I don't think I ever saw one in a game but many minis were sold for showcase painting or dreams of it. lol
Coincidentally...I've been buying a lot of the classics that have been re-released during the TOW launch, including the Green Knight a week ago. :o I have absolutely no use for it, but it was just too iconic to pass.
Yes, still available at the moment of writing as an online only item.
https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/kingdom-of-bretonnia-the-green-knight-2024
I would have a thing or two to write about the actual topic of this thread, but now I have to do...gardening, between the torrents and thunderstorms we've been getting here recently. ;)
-
You can still get the old Citadel 'Normans' from Foundry, which might be the generation before this but have a similar vibe.
So you can! Quite a bit of old citadel there. :-*
-
So you can! Quite a bit of old citadel there. :-*
Very tempted by the Vikings and Orientals.