Are you a gaming snob?
Are you a gaming snob?I always have and always will be.
I'm also that jackass who likes to buy colour matched dice for each faction, period pieces for cards/dice, etc. :-X
I'm also that jackass who likes to buy colour matched dice for each faction, period pieces for cards/dice, etc. :-X
I just remember going to a convention one time which was hosting a Warmachine tournament. Bless the poor guys running it, but they had a dozen tables with felt (white= snow, green= grass) and went so far as to put brown cut-outs for felt as rocks (2D), and black/grey cut out felt boxes for bunkers (again, 2D). It almost made me sad to see such a poor attempt at running an event. It was made worse seeing the tournament underway with almost exclusively unpainted figures clambering over a completely flat gaming surface.
I would only game with painted figures. If I ever arranged a games with someone I didn't know and they turned up with an unpainted army I would still have the game but maybe not arrange another one [insert guilty icon here]
I just remember going to a convention one time which was hosting a Warmachine tournament. Bless the poor guys running it, but they had a dozen tables with felt (white= snow, green= grass) and went so far as to put brown cut-outs for felt as rocks (2D), and black/grey cut out felt boxes for bunkers (again, 2D). It almost made me sad to see such a poor attempt at running an event. It was made worse seeing the tournament underway with almost exclusively unpainted figures clambering over a completely flat gaming surface.
So we all have to set our own bar, I guess :)I prefer my bar set at 42 inches, personally, gives a comfortable lean both when standing and when sat on a barstool. :D
I prefer my bar set at 42 inches, personally, gives a comfortable lean both when standing and when sat on a barstool. :D
I have to say I really like how this thread has generated rather nuanced and mild responses, despite the somewhat provocative title. Many other forums I visit would have had to have mods get out the riot gear 4 replies in...
I'm not surprised to see the high amount of responses with people who prefer visually pleasing painted miniatures and crafted terrain, it matches what we see in the various threads on this forum. We (yeah, generalising here) tend to take (deserved) pride in our miniature craftmanship and "play it painted" attitude.
Which had gotten me thinking, I once heard the LAF be referred to as "elitist" when discussing wargaming forums with some mates. Knowing the LAF as a generally friendly and accepting bunch, this naturally surprised me, and I asked him to elaborate. He had construed the number of threads showing fine wargaming craftsmanship (and projects of impressive/insane size) and the mock "rockstar status" of certain members, as LAF only accepting the "cream of the crop". As a result feeling unwelcome due to his (in his eyes) lesser talents and his preference for playing the game over modelling. I tried to dissuade him from this conviction, but to no avail.
Similarly, back when the local gaming club was still active, a few of us held ourselves to the "play it painted" maxim, and we found that a few of the newer members were somewhat intimidated out of asking us for a game because they hadn't finished painting their armies or felt their painting wasn't up to our standards. (This one was easily remedied, we invited them for game, problem fixed.)
Has anyone else encountered similar adverse reactions to our "gaming snobbery"/striving to make our games a visual feast? And how did you respond/deal with it?
It seems odd to me that some people view this forum as the haunt ,and preserve of an 'Elite' I don't remember an entrance exam when I joined. ;D
Captain Blood. I agree that the aesthetics of hobby is important.Non more so than a display game.The point I was trying to make with my pet hate. Is display games where time ,effort,and money have been ploughed into a table(regardless of the skill level ) figures painted scenery made and dressed etc .Then right in the middle of all that effort sit straight out of the box toy cars.
It's that lack of flow,and continuity of aesthetics that sticks out like a sore thumb,and leaves me wondering if they ran out of time.Or just don't care.
Totally. That said, I'm happy enough when people put in the effort and don't criticize the result.This.
This.
I've always seen this forum as friendly place where one can participate, improve and expand their options.
Miniatures wargaming is an inherently visual hobby. We want it to look nice. We want to represent little men on model terrain. if we didn't want that, and it wasn't visual, then we would all just play with chits, counters or board games. But we don't, because the visual impact appeals to us. Once you accept that basic premise, it makes no sense to me for miniatures wargamers to claim 'it doesn't matter what it looks like' - because patently it does matter what it looks like. Otherwise you wouldn't be into wargaming with miniatures at all.
While I know the game itself is no different if it's played with plastic models/unpainted plastic dishes as terrain on a simple piece of felt...I just can't be bothered. I occasionally sit back and feel a bit like a snob since I expect a reasonable standard of table-top quality when someone is presenting a game.
I suppose I should clarify a bit. I've no issue with gaming with plastics etc. if there are kids or new players, etc. But for seasoned gamers etc. I'd probably shy away from an invitation to something like that.
That's the one aspect of your admitted snobbishness I cannot understand. You want tables to look nice & armies to be painted, that's understandable, but what difference does it make if the figures are plastic, resin or metal?
I think he means unpainted plastic miniatures, but I may be mistaken.
Yep, unpainted plastics. Now...resin...they can sod off! lol
* Remember, the first big Lead Adventure Meeting (which took place in Germany, but had a few LAFers from other countries too) was an invitation-only event that happened in secret. A few days of peculiar silence in the forum were followed by the sudden, after-the-fact announcement that many of the "rockstar" LAFers had convened for a gaming extravaganza. I know they meant it as a fun, positive surprise, and in a way it was, but from my underachiever's perspective it was also a somewhat daunting jolt that made me realise I'd been flattering myself :)
Actually you are wrong. The first Lead Adventure Meeting was here in England. I know because I organised it. Was it by invitation? Yes it was because I invited the people that I knew on the forum who I was friends with. It was a weekend together with like minded people to play games and have fun. It was not a convention/show open to anyone to attend.
We have never suggested it is anything other than that. The following year our German friends decided to reciprocate and held a German gathering and so it has been since since then. When you invite your friends around for a weekends gaming do you publisize it in advance and allow anyone you don't know to turn up?
Actually I have no problem using unpainted or proxies for testing some new ruleset, or something similar.
But usually we play with painted minis, to our best, that, obviously change from person to person.
What I really cannot stand is minis painted to a VERY low standard, without any effort to obtain a good result.
Actually you are wrong. The first Lead Adventure Meeting was here in England. I know because I organised it. Was it by invitation? Yes it was because I invited the people that I knew on the forum who I was friends with. It was a weekend together with like minded people to play games and have fun. It was not a convention/show open to anyone to attend.
We have never suggested it is anything other than that. The following year our German friends decided to reciprocate and held a German gathering and so it has been since since then. When you invite your friends around for a weekends gaming do you publisize it in advance and allow anyone you don't know to turn up?
I was going to point that out too.
(In fact, I think we may have had two 'BLAMs' before the first 'GLAM' :))
We have run BLAMs for the last 8 or 9 years, and I'd estimate that at least 100 different LAF members have attended these events across that time span. Even though on any one day there may be only 20 - 25 people there. So not really elitist or exclusive. But not uncontrolled attendance either. Normally it's governed by the size of the room being used :)
I didn't think the BLAM meetings were exclusive or snobby at all. As Nick has said they started out with people he know and Richard's comment about space is equally correct
"rockstar" LAFers lol
"Everybody plays" is almost as important to us as having a good-looking game.
Nah, no pretty, young groupies lol
cheers
James
I enjoy my hobby the way I want to enjoy it. For me that involves painted miniatures and terrain for the reasons Captain Blood has elaborated on many times.
However, I don't care how you enjoy your hobby and I don't think any less of you because you may have a different viewpoint to me. I expect the same in return.
As far as I'm concerned, playing with unpainted miniatures is a different hobby. I hope you enjoy it, have fun.
I take exception when someone tries to gatecrash my hobby and demands that I do things their way. I am under no obligation to allow you to play with your unpainted miniatures on my painted table with my painted miniatures. I will not share my time and effort equally with your no time and no effort to satisfy your misplaced sense of entitlement.
I enjoy my hobby the way I want to enjoy it. For me that involves painted miniatures and terrain for the reasons Captain Blood has elaborated on many times.
However, I don't care how you enjoy your hobby and I don't think any less of you because you may have a different viewpoint to me. I expect the same in return.
As far as I'm concerned, playing with unpainted miniatures is a different hobby. I hope you enjoy it, have fun.
I take exception when someone tries to gatecrash my hobby and demands that I do things their way. I am under no obligation to allow you to play with your unpainted miniatures on my painted table with my painted miniatures. I will not share my time and effort equally with your no time and no effort to satisfy your misplaced sense of entitlement.
is not for me to lower my standards to be inclusive, it is for you to raise yours in order to be included.
That's not being a snob. It´s being an adult who's comfortable in their own skin and has realised that being good. At something doesn't need apologising for.
The more I read the opinions of others.The more its seems the best way to sum the general philosophy that's filtering through (if a little bluntly put)is-'It is not for me to lower my standards to be inclusive,It is for you to raise yours in order to be included That's not being a snob.Its being an adult who's comfortable in their own skin,and has realised that being good. At something doesn't need apologising for.
As far as I'm concerned, playing with unpainted miniatures is a different hobby. I hope you enjoy it, have fun.
I am under no obligation to allow you to play with your unpainted miniatures on my painted table with my painted miniatures. I will not share my time and effort equally with your no time and no effort to satisfy your misplaced sense of entitlement.Are you referring to soley to not sharing your table with unpainted minis or not sharing your table with those who don't want to paint minis?
The more I read the opinions of others.The more its seems the best way to sum the general philosophy that's filtering through (if a little bluntly put)is-'It is not for me to lower my standards to be inclusive,It is for you to raise yours in order to be included That's not being a snob.Its being an adult who's comfortable in their own skin,and has realised that being good. At something doesn't need apologising for.
I enjoy my hobby the way I want to enjoy it. For me that involves painted miniatures and terrain for the reasons Captain Blood has elaborated on many times.
However, I don't care how you enjoy your hobby and I don't think any less of you because you may have a different viewpoint to me. I expect the same in return.
As far as I'm concerned, playing with unpainted miniatures is a different hobby. I hope you enjoy it, have fun.
I take exception when someone tries to gatecrash my hobby and demands that I do things their way. I am under no obligation to allow you to play with your unpainted miniatures on my painted table with my painted miniatures. I will not share my time and effort equally with your no time and no effort to satisfy your misplaced sense of entitlement.
Sorry, this is a total strawman. How many people are banging on your front door clutching piles of unpainted lead, demanding to "gatecrash" your games and forcing you to play what they want? That's right, absolutely none. No-one in this thread, and certainly no-one in real life is demanding that you personally play against shoebox Land Raiders or Coke-can Dreadnoughts.
I think you missed the point.
The gate crashing is metaphorical, illustrated by lots of whiney replies every time someone says they like playing with painted miniatures.
I have never ever told anyone how to enjoy their hobby, nor will I.
I expect the same consideration from others.
Twenty seven people hammered on my door last week demanding to gatecrash my games using their crap painted figures... I killed 'em all!:o
Still not seeing it.
It's obviously a contentious issue which people take different views on, but let's not let the discussion heat up please :)
I just think is wargaming MANNERS to have your figures painted on the table.
Lets face its any monkey can have unpainted stuff on the table BUT a true wargamer would not dream of having stuff on the table unpainted HE will have taken time and money too get his army up to a like able standard ;).
This kind of sums up the running attitude of this thread, and indeed the article that matakishi linked:
Those who paint are at a higher standard, and thus have the right to be rude to others, because apparently those who don't do exactly as they do are being rude.
Anybody else spot the double standards with that?
Of course I could be mistaken, but that's the impression I get from this. Especially when you read phrases like "true wargamers". Elitism much?
What I have taken from this thread is that it doesn't really have anything to do with the volume or quality of the miniatures that you paint but the effort that you put into it.
It seems clear that most people would like to play with painted miniatures and nice terrain, obviously everyone has different standards and capabilities and everyone's abilities vary greatly but I think the most common theme is that people are adverse to playing with people who make no effort and regularly field unpainted armies as they are uninterested in painting them (this is where the counter/marker etc. comment I think is fair). However if you are a slow painter, have no time etc. or have any number of other reasons it seems that most people would be content to play with you.
I never heard anything about my limited english here or somthing bad about my painting or about my terrible photos.
Reading this discussion it feels like talking about the wrong forum lol
I am a reverse snob :)
My approach has always been that the hobby is wargaming and the clue is in the name.
It's how things are done.
I think it would be fair to say that there are a few elite painters on this forum but I have never had anything but a positive experience when dealing with them. I certainly haven't experienced any of the rudeness or arrogance that seems to be implied in some of the comments. I have visited this forum for quite a few years now and I have seen and received nothing but positive feedback and constructive critisicm for which I am very grateful. I have NEVER seen anyone excluded, patronised or deliberately offended on LAF if I had I probably wouldn't be here most days. I certainly see LAF as aspirational and inspirational rather than elitist and snobby. Just my opinion though.
In my experience, the 'snobbery' is usually the other way round. Because I've seen lots of comments down the years (not so much here, but certainly on other forums and in magazines) from wargamers who do not have the time, interest, skill or money to paint figures as well as they would like, or make / model terrain they would like, and who are resentful, bitter and hostile towards those that do. This again, sadly, is just a very human trait in some people. 'I can't do it, so why should you?'
Certainly for me, the (undefined) spirit of LAF has always been to encourage and inspire through the sharing of work and ideas. If we all settled for the line of least resistance and said 'it doesn't matter what it looks like', there would be nothing to come here for apart from endless pontification, and nothing to inspire.
Interesting as all these small essays are, I can't help thinking that the time taken to write them could be better spent painting figures, which after all is what the LAF is all about lol
Interesting as all these small essays are, I can't help thinking that the time taken to write them could be better spent painting figures, which after all is what the LAF is all about lol
Or getting an archery game into print...
Now that's a novel idea . . . lol
Stop procrastinating and get on with it! ;)
Eh, not today, I'll procrastinate tomorrow... ;)
As it is my main hobby, I put a lot of thought into wargaming. I simply cannot express it all in painted miniatures... I have tried interpretative dance, but after several china breakages and an unintended defenestration of a hanging lamp, this has been forever barred by the misses. So typing it must be. ;DI'd have liked to see this. Did the chandelier start the thirty years war?
Did the chandelier start the thirty years war?
I think Chandelier mostly wrote about the Napoleonic Wars, can't find any of his works on the TYW.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c3/8f/e5/c38fe5e5a6967f7dab0578c33aaf7974.jpg)
Interesting as all these small essays are, I can't help thinking that the time taken to write them could be better spent painting figures, which after all is what the LAF is all about lolNownow... if that is true, what would be the point of this forum?
Interesting as all these small essays are, I can't help thinking that the time taken to write them could be better spent painting figures, which after all is what the LAF is all about lolHes right though. I dont know how many times i have spent hours looking through the forum getting loads of inspiration to do great projects and then realised another evening is over without getting anything painted.
Interesting eilif.
I am also a person who almost exclusively wargames with miniatures - boardgames and computer games are to me at least related but different.
My point is that the gaming part is the key. Many people enjoy painting - which is great for them - but I don't see how that is a core part of the hobby.
There are some wargamers whose entire collection has been painted by painting services. Are they lesser wargamers because of that?
This reminds me of the old fantasy/historical divide from many moons ago. Can you still find people that look down on fantasy or sci-fi miniature wargames as being lesser brethren and not true or proper wargamers?
There is a functional difference between a chit and a miniature. The lightness of chits make them more awkward to play with. In a game where there are no fixed locations provided by a board then the slight nudges, bumps and wobbles chits will receive make a difference. Miniatures are also easier to handle, pick up, move, etc. So there is a game play reason to use miniatures - not just visual.
How it looks definitely matters, but if it's not painted it still looks like something a little more than a counter. Yes, painting is part of what contributes to the visual aspect, but it's not the whole thing, is it.
Are you a gaming snob?
Yes
:D
I can only hope ;)
cheers
James
The thread seems to have got hung up on painted versus unpainted minis and as I was introduced to wargaming by Mr Featherstone's first tome (1968 edition gifted to me in the mid 1970s) his then thoughts on the matter seem appropriate.
Looking through the book, except for perhaps the WW2 game which cannot be clearly discerned, the minis are painted.
On p19 he says: "..... Goes to endless trouble to ensure that his figures are correctly equipped and painted"
On p21: ".... Nearly everyone at least paints his own figures ....."
On p34: "...Finally, all soldiers have to be painted to resemble the armies of their period and this can be done crudely or to a highly professional standard. The satisfaction seems to be in strict ratio to the trouble that is taken in this sphere."
I wouldn't go as far to say that using unpainted minis isn't wargaming but I do think that those who insist upon them are aspiring to a different overall experience than those that don't.
I am also puzzled about when the "things don't need to be painted - painting is only a small part of the hobby" thing came in? I am guessing with GW and the constantly changing army lists and new releases that people couldn't keep up with?The "historical" argument is one of the best for why painting is part of the hobby. Looking back through the history of commercial tabletop miniature wargaming it clear that it's nearly always done and been done with painted miniatures.
I started in 1974 and all the pictures of games I saw then had painted figures...
If you showed a photo of one of your games to a non-gaming colleague at work, would they say, 'Bloody hell that is impressive?', my thoughts are that this is what I need to be aiming for.This is what I aim for. Both because I'd like my players to think so and because I want to have the same feeling when I sit down for a game. I want to impress myself and my friends (and bystanders if I'm at a FLGS or convention) everytime I layout a game.
Biased example. Option B isn't properly based.I'm having a hard time taking this seriously.
I would play with either with a slight preferance for option A in the correct circumstances.
Devil's in the details, and that's why discussion uses text.
I have seen flat figures painted by painters who are way beyond my own skills, which looked even three-dimensional by their paintjobs. In that case I´d not shy away from saying that painting actually IS the whole thing.
First there is sculpting, that´s right.
A bad paintjob can obscure though not ruin a good sculpt.
Somebody who put a lot of effort to sculpt a nice miniature deserves my own effort of giving it the best paintjob I can.
I'm having a hard time taking this seriously.
"slight preference... in the correct circumstances"?!?!
What are the correct circumstances in which you'd only slightly prefer painted mins.? My fertile imagination is thinking something like this...
"I'm sorry Jon, I only slightly prefer painted miniatures when gaming friends with names starting with M, F or Q and only when Mercury is in Retrograde. If you don't mind I'd rather have the unpainted figures today if they're properly based."
It's not as if posting up two ludicrous extremes makes any kind of valid point. There is nothing about the A or B option to take seriously in the first place.
An interesting response. Firstly, I wasn't trying to make a point, I was asking a question. Secondly, 'ludicrous extremes'? one lot is painted, the other lot is unpainted, they are hardly ludicrous extremes, I was just using an illustrated example to see what people prefer.
- Everyone has a right to be here so I should be more selective in the threads and members that I follow, for me that doesn't include members who in 67 posts have failed to post a single picture of any of their own efforts
I should have listened to my Grandmother when she told me "don't argue with idiots on the internet, they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"
Well correct circumstances as in, having had the time and means to paint them...? Having a reasonable amount to paint within a certain time? Actually enjoying painting those figures? Actually wanting to play said game. Getting the miniatures in time for the game. etc. These are all pretty reasonable, and nothing like the strawman example you posted up. EDIT: I was just trying to make the point that the straight A or B example is meaningless out of context. Because everybody's contexts are different. Oh and I should have clarified slight preference, I have no desire to own or play a 28mm Roman-based wargame again. Not after all those sodding Celts I had to paint...
The properly based bit was a joke (can't use the models in the same way, can you), but I mean come on. It's not as if posting up two ludicrous extremes makes any kind of valid point. There is nothing about the A or B option to take seriously in the first place.
I'm totally fine with painted miniatures as something to aspire to, especially ones as well painted as the ones in option A. But aspiration doesn't mean that everything else is invalid.
It's art.
I think this thread has been damaging to the LAF in a way.
Somehow I think one thing that has been hinted at but not addressed due to the weight of the unpainted vs painted argument is this: What about the work of those with less than stellar skills? Lots of posts here feature work just not on the same level as the top tier folk here, but still ooze with enthusiasm and love of the hobby. From some responses in the thread, I get the feeling that some people would pat them on the head and say "Good for you, but it isn't quite good enough for me to possibly game with."
I hope that the LAF isn't just about the celebration of its most talented contributors. No doubt they are a big part of it and so they should be. I think we're all here to enjoy each other's work and hopefully share our own. That isn't to say that this shouldn't be about hobby discussion, or even just posting compliments or enquiries about the work of others. I myself haven't posted much of my own stuff, and I am concerned that now I will be considered un-LAF like in the eyes of some. Most of my contributions have been detailed battle reports, with scenery and figures I think many would be happy to game with. Even if sometimes the baseline is a felt battle mat. ;)
I dont share that view at all. There is such a thing as inspiration and a strife for improvement. Point me a wargaming forum which is more sharing, constructing, encouraging...
Which would you rather play with?
A
or B
I hope that the LAF isn't just about the celebration of its most talented contributors.Honestly, I don't think it is - I think the really well painted and modelled stuff is inspiring, but so is seeing a full complement of gamers/modellers of all levels, ages and experience. Just seeing the hobby alive and growing is inspirational! I think the LAF showcases the full range pretty well.
I dont share that view at all. There is such a thing as inspiration and a strife for improvement. Point me a wargaming forum which is more sharing, constructing, encouraging...
Neither do I, to be clear. Some posts just had a slight implication of that, whether intentional or not.
PS: I wouldn't play with the chits OR the unpainted ;) :D
Lock it. Nothing but bad vibes left on this thread. No good will come of it at this point. :(
Lock it. Nothing but bad vibes left on this thread. No good will come of it at this point. :(
Lock it. Nothing but bad vibes left on this thread. No good will come of it at this point. :(
I joined the LAF for its gentlemanly nature of the time.
Always positive and encouraging.
There were other places to spout on and argue but this was not one of them.
This the Lead Adventure Forum.
Where is the 'Adventure' in all of this?
Well for me, the "Adventure" is likely to be found on another forum. For many here, a pet peeve for them is unpainted models. For me, it's elitism.