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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Ethelred the Almost Ready on 25 June 2016, 06:56:40 AM
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I have quoted Hobgoblin below:
"Thanks! That's good to know. I think "how do you represent the Uruk-hai" is a real conundrum for gaming Middle Earth. Uruks have a lot of positives:
The ability to move at great speeds for long distances
heavy armour that doesn't impede the above
powerful bows (that all of them seem to carry)
reasonable discipline
good morale and considerable ferocity
Nevertheless, they appear in the tens of thousands (uruks seem to make up the bulk of the armies of Isengard andMordor, and also appear in the forces of the North). And they die in their droves. The one disadvantage Tolkien consistently points to is their small stature. To that you could add a bit of ill discipline (wasting arrows and the like). A tendency to turn on their own kind isn't really a battlefield weakness; they don't do it randomly in the books.
So, the conundrum is, how do you get fast, heavily armoured combined archers/melee troops to appear in large numbers and not unbalance the game?
One thing I've thought of for DR is to use two models for one (so half a strength point each) in Bellicose Foot units with Shiny Armour and give them bows for free in return for a disadvantage against Man-sized shieldwalls. The idea is that the Wild Charge will give them limited use of their bows (just a 4" band of effective range before Wild Charge kicks in, to simulate aggression/shooting off all their arrows, etc. But the problem with this is that it rules out the "Death of Boromir" - and the fact that a good officer - like Ugluk - is able to stop them from charging and wasting their arrows.
Would double-sized units (with no mechanical effects - just two models removed for each kill) work OK in Saga? And does it have capacity for units that are both heavily armoured melee specialists and bow-armed? I can't think of any historical analogues, though there are some parallels with Persian and Byzantine heavy cavalry.
(This obsession probably appears marginally insane! But it is a tough one. In SBH, you can model it well by upping the combat score, adding the bow, but also adding the Rabble trait for all but the leaders, so that you get vicious and relatively fearsome enemies who will, nevertheless, die in their droves ....)"
Are there any thoughts about how LOTR/Silmarillion armies should be represented in DR?
I will post my thoughts soon, but dinner and wine have just arrived at the table!
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Noldor Elves, First Age:
I think most would be Heavy Foot, offensive.
The forces from Gondolin were stated to be spear armed and would therefore mainly be standard heavy foot (with wall of spears).
They are supplemented by light missiles, sharp shooters. Elite riders. They might also have rangers - elite foot, missiles.
Heroes are individual figures, mainly as elite foot. The odd wizardling might be appropriate.
Orcs:
These could include bellicose foot (some with terrifically shiney armour), some as light foot with or without missiles or offensive, scouts. Commanders might be attached to heavy foot, offensive.
Add trolls - Greater Warbeasts, cunning, fear; wargs - lesser warbeasts, cunning, fear vs cavalry.
I am unsure about wolf riders and then there is the odd werewolf and Balrog to think about.
Could the Uruks be best represented as bellicose foot with shiney armour? This covers many of Hobgoblin's requirements (although not all).
Dwarves:
I can't see these as much other than heavy foot, with a few scouts and elite foot.
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My own take on Middle Earth orcs
Elite Uruks/Bodyguard Orcs (such as Bolg's bodyguard or Ugluk's followers): Bellicose Foot (possibly with Shiny Armour)
Uruks/Soldier Orcs: Light Foot with either Offensive or Mixed Weapons
Snaga/Smaller Orcs: Light Foot with Mixed Weapons and Fearful
Trolls: Elite Foot
Wargs/Wolves: Lesser Warbeasts
Wolf Riders: still undecided either Heavy Riders with Fearful or else Light Riders with Short Range Missiles
For the First Age I wouldn't upgrade Bellicose Foot with Shiny Armour and there wouldn't be any Uruks or wolf riders.
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Is there any appreciable difference between a dwarf armed with an axe and a dwarf armed with a mattock? :) Venomous for the extra anti-armour punch of a mattock?
Trolls... I dunno. I suppose there's not much in it, but for myself I'd keep greater warbeasts for the really big stuff, as suggested in the book. Like balrogs and dragons. I'd put trolls as elite foot, or as the book also suggests, heavy foot. YMMV!
I can't see much difference between werewolves and wargs. IIRC Hobgoblin was able to drag up an obscure reference of the former transforming, but I don't think they're the same as the shapeshifting humans of old stories and modern pop-culture. (There was Sauron, but he wasn't human, and at that time could take the shape of anything he wanted!) Looking at the likes of Drauglin and Carcharoth, they seem to be Maiar or other spirits in bigger, more powerful wolf-forms. Much like wargs; and I think the implication (or inference) is that the Third Age wargs are descendants of First Age werewolves. (Gandalf mentions werewolves in Sauron's service in the Third Age, but like orcs, that could be a hint of the longevity of Maiar 'form-takers', or the race in general)
Game-wise, I'd say treat them the same as wargs. Maybe reduced model to represent greater power, or an actual boost from some fantastical rule? (Fear vs. everything, not just cav?)
Wolf riders: flame/spore attack, representing orc bows. :)
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Are the Uruks ever described as particularly good shots? Even if they get those free powerful bows, you could make it so their shoot stat is crap. With my dice rolling they'd never hit anything! You remember the part in the Fellowship of the Ring film where Lurtz has an arrow drawn right in Boromir's face? If I was rolling for that, I'd miss, even if Aragorn didn't show up!
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Are the Uruks ever described as particularly good shots? Even if they get those free powerful bows, you could make it so their shoot stat is crap. With my dice rolling they'd never hit anything! You remember the part in the Fellowship of the Ring film where Lurtz has an arrow drawn right in Boromir's face? If I was rolling for that, I'd miss, even if Aragorn didn't show up!
They do kill Boromir, but it takes them some time:
"He had made them fight. He slew many of them and the rest fled. But they had not gone far on the way back when they were attacked again, by a hundred Orcs at least, some of them very large, and they shot a rain of arrows: always at Boromir. Boromir had blown his great horn till the woods rang, and at first the Orcs had been dismayed and had drawn back; but when no answer but the echoes came, they had attacked more fiercely than ever. Pippin did not remember much more. His last memory was of Boromir leaning against a tree, plucking out an arrow; then darkness fell suddenly."
Balin is killed by an orcish "sniper" in Moria of course (whether one of the uruks present there or not we don't know), which implies a reasonably good shot.
Then again, the uruks do seem prone to wasting arrows (Ugluk has to rush off to stop them doing this in Rohan).
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Trolls... I dunno. I suppose there's not much in it, but for myself I'd keep greater warbeasts for the really big stuff, as suggested in the book. Like balrogs and dragons. I'd put trolls as elite foot, or as the book also suggests, heavy foot. YMMV!
Yes, I'd agree with you and Sunjester that trolls should be a reduced-model unit. The description of the trolls at the Morannon - "taller and broader than Men" makes them sound big but not that big - maybe eight feet tall or something. They don't appear to be on the scale of the Mumakil or something like that. And when they clash with Men of Gondor, one knocks out a man and then is killed by a Hobbit (albeit one with a magical dagger); they're fighting hand to hand with Men, not trundling over them.
I might, though, represent trolls as reduced-model Bellicose Foot with the Armoured upgrade. Why? Because of this:
"Then even as he thought these things the first assault crashed into them. The orcs hindered by the mires that lay before the hills halted and poured their arrows into the defending ranks. But through them there came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth. Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands. Reckless they sprang into the pools and waded across, bellowing as they came. Like a storm they broke upon the line of the men of Gondor, and beat upon helm and head, and arm and shield as smiths hewing the hot bending iron. At Pippin’s side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down."
That "Reckless" and "sprang", coupled with "Like a storm they broke ...", suggest to me that the trolls weren't much slowed by rough ground. So Bellicose Foot with the Shiny Armour upgrade sounds about right. Perhaps Venomous too, to convey that sense of "smiths hewing the hot bending iron".
I can't see much difference between werewolves and wargs. IIRC Hobgoblin was able to drag up an obscure reference of the former transforming, but I don't think they're the same as the shapeshifting humans of old stories and modern pop-culture. (There was Sauron, but he wasn't human, and at that time could take the shape of anything he wanted!) Looking at the likes of Drauglin and Carcharoth, they seem to be Maiar or other spirits in bigger, more powerful wolf-forms. Much like wargs; and I think the implication (or inference) is that the Third Age wargs are descendants of First Age werewolves. (Gandalf mentions werewolves in Sauron's service in the Third Age, but like orcs, that could be a hint of the longevity of Maiar 'form-takers', or the race in general)
I agree. I don't recall that discussion: Beren turns himself into a werewolf at one point, I think, but yes, they seem to be evil spirits in wolf form, not shapeshifters.
Game-wise, I'd say treat them the same as wargs. Maybe reduced model to represent greater power, or an actual boost from some fantastical rule? (Fear vs. everything, not just can?)
Yes - essentially warg "heroes".
Wolf riders: flame/spore attack, representing orc bows. :)
As Lesser Warbeasts? Yes - I think wolf-riders could either be represented as Lesser Warbeasts or as Light Riders causing Fear in horses. Or a mix of both. Or, maybe something odd like Light Riders plus Venomous, giving them speed and real "bite".
One argument for wolfriders as Lesser Warbeasts rather than Light Riders is that the former aren't slowed by terrain. It's hard to imagine Orc-ridden wargs being slowed by a wood, for example.
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I don't recall that discussion:
I might have dreamed it, or misremembered the Beren reference. Sorry!
I wonder if there's a case to be made for two troll profiles, if the 'hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth' were likely to be the Olog-Hai from the appendix - 'a troll-race not before seen'. That and the question of what stock Sauron bred them from suggests they were physically different, but details are frustratingly vague. They're big and fierce and possibly scaly, like other trolls. Their increased cunning and ability to withstand sunlight (and ferocity?) seem to be more due to Sauron exerting his will on them.
Same troll minis, heavy foot or bellicose foot (armed with hammers and bucklers) depending on whether late Third Age Mordor force, or not?
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I might have dreamed it, or misremembered the Beren reference. Sorry!
No problem! (And it's perfectly possible that I was spouting nonsense at some point ...)
I wonder if there's a case to be made for two troll profiles, if the 'hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth' were likely to be the Olog-Hai from the appendix - 'a troll-race not before seen'.
Yes, I think they must be the Olog-hai: they appear in daylight and are armed with weapons and so on.
Also - and I think that this is a really important point in talking about Tolkien in gaming circles - Tolkien doesn't use his terms neatly. The best example (and my favourite hobby horse!) is the Uruk-hai - who, for the most part, aren't called the Uruk-hai, but are just called "Orcs" (or "goblins").
Gamers always seem to be talking about "Orcs and Uruk-hai", but Tolkien never makes that distinction: he generally describes the creatures as "Orcs" in the narrative voice and then has them call themselves "the Uruk-hai". There is the odd exception in the text: references to "Uruks" or "the Uruk-hai", but those are never distinguished from, or contrasted with, "Orcs".
So, in the same vein, we shouldn't be looking for a reference to "Olog-hai" in the main text (the protagonists never meet someone who talks about the Olog-hai", so they don't know the term). Instead, we should be looking for references to new and improved types of troll. And - lo and behold - we get a description of "upgraded" trolls in FoTR and a "showing" of agile, fierce, sun-enduring trolls armed with dreadful weapons in RoTK.
All of which is a very long-winded way of saying "Yes, exactly"!
That and the question of what stock Sauron bred them from suggests they were physically different, but details are frustratingly vague. They're big and fierce and possibly scaly, like other trolls. Their increased cunning and ability to withstand sunlight (and ferocity?) seem to be more due to Sauron exerting his will on them.
Same troll minis, heavy foot or bellicose foot (armed with hammers and bucklers) depending on whether late Third Age Mordor force, or not?
That sounds a good plan - though perhaps only the Olog-hai are armed:
"Trolls were abroad, no longer dullwitted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons."
And I think that heavy foot/bellicose foot distinction might be backed up by this:
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them."
Cunning and agility seem to be Olog-hai-specific traits: note the repetition of "cunning" in the two descriptions of the new type of troll.
And that agility gives us both the springing, rough-terrain disregarding trolls of the Morannon and - in Dragon Rampant terms - Bellicose Foot rather than Heavy Foot for the more agile, newfangled trolls.
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Also - and I think that this is a really important point in talking about Tolkien in gaming circles - Tolkien doesn't use his terms neatly. The best example (and my favourite hobby horse!) is the Uruk-hai - who, for the most part, aren't called the Uruk-hai, but are just called "Orcs" (or "goblins").
Gamers always seem to be talking about "Orcs and Uruk-hai", but Tolkien never makes that distinction...
Oh yes! I think trolls suffer almost as much. Apart from the term and description of 'Olog-Hai' contributing to the confusion of Uruk-Hai vs. orcs... well, as an example, I'm quite fond of the Tolkien Gateway as a quick Middle-Earth wiki reference. It's book-based and reasonably thorough. But when you look at the page for trolls, it's pretty short and quickly turns into a list of links for seven(!) troll 'breeds' - including splitting (Gorgoroth) 'hill-trolls' and 'Olog-Hai' into different types - for little more reason than the geographic monikers they're given in the story. (I also notice that it says trolls were created by Morgoth in the First Age, but the cited reference for that - Appendix F in LotR - only says they were dull, lumpish creatures given wits and speech by Sauron!)
That sounds a good plan - though perhaps only the Olog-hai are armed:
Ah, yes, that's what I meant - 'bellicose' Gorgoroth trolls with hammers and bucklers. :) I knew I'd worded it badly!
Cunning and agility seem to be Olog-hai-specific traits: note the repetition of "cunning" in the two descriptions of the new type of troll.
And that agility gives us both the springing, rough-terrain disregarding trolls of the Morannon and - in Dragon Rampant terms - Bellicose Foot rather than Heavy Foot for the more agile, newfangled trolls.
Yes! I also think that might be the biggest clue to any physical difference, even to a vague resemblance to orcs. What does a more agile troll look like? Thinner and less 'lumpish'? Longer and/or thinner legs? Particularly if Bilbo was able to identify a trio of stone-trolls (Trollus bogstandardus lapis ;D ) partly by the shape of their legs. Maybe they even *gasp* had toes!
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I have nothing of substance to add to this thread except my admiration to all taking part, and my hopeful anticipation that it will continue :)
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I got to thinking about this topic, and decided to check through the books I have here for references to First-Age fighting methods, weapons, and armour. (I thought it'd be less arduous checking Arda than wrestling with Westeros! I'll get me coat) To be honest most of what I found might affect the appearance of the models rather than providing a lot of unusual kinks in the types and special rules of the army lists, but anyway.
I read through The Silmarillion and the First-Age section of Unfinished Tales. So I read the short version of the Narn i Hîn Húrin and the long version of the Narn i Hîn Húrin, and I have the even longer version of the Narn i Hîn Húrin on my bookshelf! Forgot I even had it, let alone to read it. I think I'll leave that one aside for the mo. I also flicked through Part One of The Book of Lost Tales, but didn't find many descriptions there.
So, yeah, Noldor first. I didn't see too much to contradict Ethelred's opinions. There are a lot of references to mail, swords, spears and shields; too many to quote. Right from the start, before the First Age of the Sun even begins...
Oh, and SPOILERS
And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears. Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied with eachother... And Fëanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons, and made tall helms with plumes of red.
And for the Sindar too:
Therefore Thingol took thought for arms, which before his people had not needed, and these at first the Naugrim smithied for him; for they were greatly skilled in such work...
Their smithcraft indeed the Sindar soon learned of them; yet in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival.
At this time therefore the Sindar were well-armed, and they drove off all creatures of evil, and had peace again; but Thingol's armouries were stored with axes and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail; for the hauberks of the Dwarves were so fashioned that they rusted not but shone ever as if they were new-burnished.
Two things: red plumes. Too much to hope that's the signature colour of Fëanor's house and sons?
Also, note that Dwarves invented basic mail. No doubt the Noldor would have soon picked it up after returning to Middle-earth, but what would they have worn in the early days, especially for the Battle-under-Stars? No armour? Cloth armour? Scale armour? For the latter, from Tuor's encounter with Ulmo:
Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glittering in the dusk; and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of a mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land.
... and Thingol's armouries:
Now Thingol had in Menegroth deep armouries filled with great wealth of weapons: metal wrought like fishes' mail and shining like water in the moon; swords and axes, shields and helms, wrought by Telchar himself or by his master Gamil Zirak the old, or by elven-wrights more skilful still. For some things he had received in gift that came out of Valinor and were wrought by Fëanor in his mastery...
There are a few straws to clutch at: that 'metal wrought like fishes' mail' is scale armour; that's it's one of the gifts originally from Valinor; and that the Noldor may have made it in imitation of Ulmo's coat. But it's entertaining to think of.
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There are a few references and hints about the appearance of Noldorin armies, and even some differences between them:
But as the host of Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming in the West; and Fingolfin unfurled his blue and silver banners, and blew his horns...
Now the people of Caranthir dwelt furthest east beyond the upper waters of Gelion, about lake Helevorn under Mount Rerir and to the southward... and when the Dwarves began again to journey into Beleriand all the traffic of the dwarf-mines passed through the hands of Caranthir, and thus great riches came to him.
In that labour Finrod was aided by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains; and they were rewarded well, for Finrod had brought more treasures out of Tirion than any other of the princes of the Noldor. And in that time was made for him the Nauglamir, the Necklace of the Dwarves, most renowned of their work in the Elder Days. It was a carcanet of gold, and set therein were gems uncounted from Valinor.
But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.
Ethelred's Gondolin references:
For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the Leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest.
... And the Gondolindrim were strong and clad in mail, and their ranks shone like a river of steel in the sun.
Then Tuor marvelling saw that on the wall behind the throne there hung a shield and a great hauberk, and a helm and a long sword in a sheath. The hauberk shone as it were wrought of silver untarnished, and the sunbeam gilded it with sparks of gold. But the shield was of a strange shape to Tuor's eyes, for it was long and tapering; and it's field was blue, in the midst of which was wrought an emblem of a white swan's wing... And he lifted down the shield and found it light and wieldy beyond his guess; for it was wrought, it seemed, of wood, but overlaid by the craft of elven-smiths with plates of metal, strong and yet as thin as foil, whereby it had been preserved from worm and weather.
Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall... And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm...
Hints that Elf-mail (with or without Dwarfish influence) was particularly silvery; that the colours of Fingolfin's house (including his son Turgon) were blue and silver; that some kingdoms of Noldor, at least, had plenty of opportunity for decoration, with Valinorian gems or Dwarfish riches; and that the Noldor used tapered shields. Given the early medieval influence on Middle-earth I like to think of them as kite shields.
The overlay of strong, foil-thin metal is something. There's another reference a bit like it...
Now the traffic of the Dwarves down from the Blue Mountains followed two roads across East Beleriand, and the northern way, going towards the Fords of Aros, passed nigh to Nan Elmoth; and there Eöl would meet the Naugrim and hold converse with them. And as their friendship grew he would at times go and dwell as guest in the deep mansions of Nogrod or Belegost. There he learned much of metalwork, and came to great skill therein; and he devised a metal as hard as the steel of the Dwarves, but so malleable that he could make it thin and supple; and yet it remained resistant to all blades and darts. He named it galvorn, for it was black and shining like jet, and he was clad in it whenever he went abroad.
It looks like only Eöl made use of galvorn, and he didn't go on many sorties or raids from the middle of his dark wood. I guess the dwarves trusted to proper steel more, and other elves had no trouble working metal fine and strong.
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For more differences, and something that might actually affect unit choice in DR: the open lands around the March of Maedhros, where Fëanor's sons settled, suggested cavalry, and sure enough, not just them...
Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband...
But their chief fortress was at Eithel Sirion in the east of Ered Wethrin, whence they kept watch upon Ard-Galen; and their cavalry rode upon that plain even to the shadow of Thangorodrim, for from few their horses had increased swiftly, and the grass of Ard-Galen was rich and green. Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses, for they had been carried by ship to Losgar.
East of Dorthonion the marches of Beleriand were most open to attack, and only hills of no great height guarded the vale of Gelion from the north. In that region, upon the March of Maedhros and in the lands behind, dwelt the sons of Fëanor with many people; and their riders passed often over the vast northern plain, Lothlann the wide and empty, east of Ard-Galen, lest Morgoth should attempt any sortie towards east Beleriand.
Between the arms of Gelion was the ward of Maglor, and here in one place the hills failed altogether; there it was that the Orcs came into East Beleriand before the Third Battle. Therefore the Noldor held strength of cavalry in the plains at that place...
But King Fingon was hard put to it to hold back the army of Angband that came down from the north; and battle was joined upon the very plains of Hithlum. There Fingon was outnumbered; but the ships of Círdan sailed in great strength up the Firth of Drengist, and in the hour of need the Elves of the Falas came upon the host of Morgoth from the west. Then the Orcs broke and fled, and the Eldar had the victory, and their horsed archers pursued them even into the Iron Mountains.
(I'm going to assume that's Fingon's horsed archers.)
... Celegorm rode upon him with a spear...
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There are fantastic descriptions of the guards of each of Gondolin's seven gates, in Unfinished Tales. Starting with the first, the Wood Gate:
Then Voronwë led Tuor towards the light, and as they drew near many Noldor, mail-clad and armed, stepped forward out of the darkness and surrounded them with drawn swords.
'Here stands the Second Gate, the Gate of Stone,' said Elemmakil... And they passed through, into a court where stood many armed guards clad in grey.
... And in it was set the Third Gate, the Gate of Bronze... Again silently they passed the gate, and saw in the court beyond a yet greater company of guards in mail that glowed like dull fire; and the blades of their axes were red. Of the kindred of the Sindar of Nevrast for the most part were those that held this gate.
(Not sure if the red effect was from bronzed armour or the red torches about the gate. Given the gear of the guards of the other gates, probably the former.)
Now they passed through the lines of the Iron Guards that stood behind the Gate; black were their mantles and their mail and long shields, and their faces were masked with vizors bearing each an eagle's beak.
The Silver Gate:
And beyond the Gate in a wide court paved with marble, green and white, stood archers in silver mail and white-crested helms, a hundred upon either hand.
The Gold Gate:
In the court beyond were arrayed three hundred archers with long bows, and their mail was gilded, and tall golden plumes rose from their helmets; and their great round shields were red as flame.
The Great Steel Gate:
Straightway there issued riders from the towers, but before those of the north tower came one upon a white horse; and he dismounted and strode towards them. And high and noble as was Elemmakil, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate. All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was a spike of steel pointed with a diamond; and as his esquire took his shield it shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand studs of crystal...
Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.
Swords, axes, hauberks, helms, vizors, long shields, round shields, archers, riders, ostentatious decoration... they've got it all! There's a bit of doubt about how many would actually leave Gondolin for a DR-sized scrap - IIRC they only came out for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. (Something I've typed so often the last few days, I don't need to look it up to spell anymore) But how could you resist modelling all of that?
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That's the northern Noldor. I'd say there's no type of unit that any one land couldn't include; but personally I'd skew towards more riders - especially horse archers - for Fingolfin and Fingon in Hithlum and Ard-Galen, and Maedhros and his brothers in the north marches of East Beleriand (little mention of Angrod and Aenor in Dorthonion, but with gentle northern slopes leading to Ard-Galen, I'm guessing plenty of horses there too). Perhaps fewer riders, but more heavy infantry and archers in Gondolin.
Last but not least, Nargothrond, ruled by Finrod Felagund and Orodreth after him. The plains of Talath Dirnen suggest they wouldn't have had few riders either. Also:
Upon that plain the Elves of Nargothrond kept unceasing watch; and every hill upon its borders was crowned with hidden towers, and through all its woods and fields archers ranged secretly and with great craft. Their arrows were sure and deadly, and nothing crept there against their will.
Scouts. Lots of scouts.
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But uh-oh! Here comes the Dagor Bragollach! 455 years after the beginning of the First Age and the return of the Noldor.
Thus Ard-Galen perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless. Thereafter its name was changed, and it was called Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust...
And they broke the leaguer about Angband, and slew wherever they found them the Noldor and their allies, Grey-elves and Men.
For the war had gone ill with the sons of Fëanor... And Celegorm and Curufin being defeated fled south and west by the marches of Doriath, and coming at last to Nargothrond sought harbour with Finrod Felagund. Thus it came to pass that their people swelled the strength of Nargothrond...
...the great fortress upon the Hill of Himring could not be taken, and many of the most valiant that remained, both of the people of Dorthonion and of the east marches, rallied there to Maedhros; and for a while he closed once more the Pass of Aglon, so that the Orcs could not enter Beleriand by that road. But they overwhelmed the riders of the people of Fëanor upon Lothlann, for Glaurung came thither, and passed through Maglor's Gap, and destroyed all the land between the arms of Gelion.
Maglor joined Maedhros upon Himring; but Caranthir fled and joined the remnant of the scattered folk of the hunters, Amrod and Amras, and they retreated and passed Ramdal in the south. Upon Amon Ereb they maintained a watch and some strength of war, and they had aid of the Green-elves; and the Orcs came not into Ossiriand, nor to Taur-im-Duinath and the wilds of the south.
So great a fear did [Curufin] set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm [Nargothrond] go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursed all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.
Less space and grazing for Noldor horses - although not nothing. Fingon held Hithlum, and the earlier reference to Círdan coming to the aid of Fingon's horse archers is post-Bragollach. Turgon's still hidden in Gondolin - not many changes there. Fewer heavy units and Green-elf/Laiquendi scouts for Caranthir, Amrod and Amras. (More about allies later. Much later.) And even more scouts for Nargothrond- with added invisibility, enchanted arrows, and wizardlings?
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Just when you thought it was safe - Nirnaeth Arnoediad. F.A. 472, a mere seventeen years later...
But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart.
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed. Many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor...
The realm of Fingon was no more; and the sons of Fëanor wandered as leaves before the wind. There arms were scattered, and their league broken; and they took to a wild and woodland life beneath the feet of Ered Lindon, mingling with the Green-elves of Ossiriand, bereft of their power and glory of old. In Brethil some few of the Haladin yet dwelt in the protection of their woods, and Handir son of Haldir was their lord; but to Hithlum came back never one of Fingon's host, nor any of the Men of Hador's house...
The House of Fingolfin in Hithlum is completely wiped out. Maedhros and his remaining brothers are merged even more with the Green-elves. Turgon escaped in time. Although, some years afterwards, Túrin persuades Nargothrond to open up a little...
But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more. In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made...
... Although that didn't last long. And that's it for the Noldor until the War of Wrath began in F.A. 545.
Those are a few clues about Noldor weapons, armour, unit types, even periods within the First Age; but next: the Noldor themselves.
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For the First Age I wouldn't upgrade Bellicose Foot with Shiny Armour and there wouldn't be any Uruks or wolf riders.
Was just thinking that I'd meant to reply to this a couple of weeks back - and then I saw Vermis's quote, which confirms First Age wolfriders:
"There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons."
Also, there are indications in Tolkien's writings that the uruks of the Third Age were novel to the Third Age rather than a complete innovation. The first thing is the passage from Morgoth's Ring:
"Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile." (emphasis mine)
So what Saruman did had been done before - by Morgoth or by his agents, chief among whom was Sauron.
And then, in Unfinished Tales, we get this from the end of the Second Age:
"The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dur ..."
and:
"... almost all of the great Orcs had fallen: they attempted no such attack again for long years after."
There are a couple of other references to the "great Orcs" in the same section ("Disaster of the Gladden Fields").
Taken together, these passages suggest that "great Orcs" were something that Morgoth and Sauron bred at various times - and that Saruman just chanced across the "recipe". It also suggests a cyclical set-up, whereby the rise of a dark lord begins the renewed breeding of large soldier-orcs. That cyclical things is something Tolkien even carries into our time, with the suggestion that orcs may be small and weak now, but in ancient times "they were strong and fell" (I forget where this reference is).
"Them Orcs is gettin' mighty big, Cletus."
"Yeah. One o' them Dark Lords must be settin' up agin."
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I only have time for a quick reply. It has been some years since I have read the Silmarillion so I may get a few things wrong. I believe in the First Battle of Beleriand the Green Elves were said to have suffered high casualties because they were only lightly armed and armoured. The Sindar clearly had access to mail and good weapons.
The Noldor in Aman are said to have made weapons and shields, but there is no comment on armour. In the Battle Under the Stars the Noldor are successful, partly because they are greater in body and spirit than the other elves, and this may be enough, but I suspect they are adequately armoured, unlike the Green Elves. They clearly cannot have mail, so what did they wear. It is also clear that mail became the norm in the subsequent years, so whatever they initially wore must have been seen as inferior. Perhaps a simple breast plate?
The Noldor are often quite rash in battle and clearly have an offensive capacity and I would therefore make them heavy foot "offensive" except for the spear armed elves of Gondolin who suit using the wall of spears rule.
Apart from the horse archers, most elf cavalry seems to be fairly rash as well, and elite riders seems appropriate.
It gets harder to decide on how the Green Elves (Nandor/Laiquendi??) should be depicted - light missiles with fleet footed rule?
Also, for the small battles in places like the borderlands of Dorthonian I would see the elves as having lighter armour and being bow and sword armed. These elven "rangers" are probably best depicted as elite foot with missiles.
Then we come to the Edain, the human allies of the elves.....................
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The Houses of Hador and Bëor are certainly heavy infantry, predominantly. The Haladin, probably light foot with plenty of archers.
Miniatures for the Edain, I think, are problematic. There needs to be a Dark Age feel, but they have had contact with the Eldar and should have some sophisication. The House of Hador, in particular, were likely to have access to good elven weapons, or at least mimic these. Part of my problem also goes to the question "do elves have beards?". I think the final answer is that they could grow a beard, but this was rare.
Now, I think the Houses of Hador and Bëor probably aped elvish style. My reasoning is that Turin was taunted by Saeros for his appearance after fighting on the marches of Doriath. I expect his clothing was worn and he had, by then, grown a beard and looked rather wild. Until then he was clean shaven.
So, I need dark age chaps without beards.
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All quite correct, guys; but it's not going to stop my quotapalooza. I've typed my fingers to nubs - I'm gonna use more of what I typed them to nubs for. :D Besides, I have a few extra ideas to put to you...
The Noldor are indeed great in body and spirit...
In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only in the realm of Doriath, whose queen Melian was of the kindred of Valar, did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi of the Blessed Realm.
In many parts of the land the Noldor and Sindar became welded into one people, and spoke the same tongue; though this difference remained between them, that the Noldor had the greater power of mind and body, and were the mightier warriors and sages...
Then he saw that they were grey-cloaked but mail-clad under; and he marvelled, for they were fairer and more fell to look upon, because of the light of their eyes, than any of the Elven-folk that he had yet known.
The Noldor are tough...
Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed...
There Maedhros in time was healed; for the fire of life was hot within him, and his strength was of the ancient world, such as those possessed who were nurtured in Valinor. His body recovered from his torment and became hale...
But thereafter there was peace for many years, and no open assault from Angband, for Morgoth now perceived that the Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor...
But Fingolfin was held overlord of all the Noldor, and Fingon after him, though their own realm was but the northern land of Hithlum; yet their people were the most hardy and valiant, most feared by the Orcs and most hated by Morgoth.
In the pits of Sauron Beren and Felagund lay, and all their companions were now dead; but Sauron purposed to keep Felagund to the last, for he perceived that he was a Noldo of great might and wisdom, and he deemed that in him lay the secret of their errand. But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death.
'You know the strength of Men,' he said. 'As for me, I am of the Noldor, and long must be the hunger and cold the winter that shall slay the kin of those who passed the Grinding Ice...'
'... But the Elves do not weary, and they do not die save by great hurt. From wounds and griefs that would slay Men they may be healed...'
Although...
Then Beren sprang from before Celegorm full upon the speeding horse of Curufin that had passed him; and the Leap of Beren is renowned among Men and Elves. He took Curufin by the throat from behind, and hurled him backward, and they fell to the ground together... Then Beren throttled Curufin... Then Luthien rising forbade the slaying of Curufin; but Beren despoiled him of his gear and weapons, and took his knife, Angrist... Then Beren lifting Curufin flung him from him, and bade him now walk back to his noble kinsfolk, who might teach him to turn his valour to worthier use.
Beren pretty much pushed over one of the sons of Fëanor and took his lunch money. Arguable since Beren was one of Tolkien's favourites, and Curufin was the villain in this situation. But there's also Túrin...
And he clove Saeros' shield, and then they fought together with swift blades. But Túrin had been long in a hard school, and had grown as agile as any Elf, but stronger. He soon had the mastery...
And yes, the Noldor are rash; the Noldor get angry:
Then the hearts of the Noldor grew hot, and their captains wished to assail their foes upon the plain; but Húrin spoke against it, and bade them beware of the guile of Morgoth, whose strength was always greater than it seemed.
But the Captain of Morgoth in the west had been commanded to draw out Fingon swiftly from his hills by whatever means he could... With them they brought Gelmir son of Guilin, that lord of Nargothrond whom they had captured in the Bragollach... And they hewed off Gelmir's hands and feet, and his head last, within sight of the Elves, and left him.
By ill chance, at that place in the outworks stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host. And seeing this all the host of the Noldor was set on fire, and Fingon put on his white helm and sounded his trumpets, and all the host of Hithlum leapt forth from the hills in sudden onslaught. The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds...
... you won't like them when they get angry...
Dagor-nuin-Giliath it is named, the Battle-under-Stars, for the Moon had not yet risen; and it is renowned in song. The Noldor, outnumbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible.
Maedhros did deeds of surpassing valour, and the Orcs fled before his face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returns from the dead. Thus the great fortress upon the Hill of Himring could not be taken...
Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor... And filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone. And none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
The Easterlings of Ulfang's house sure don't:
They set a great price upon his head; but they did not dare come to his hiding-place, even with strength of men, for they feared the Elven-folk, and shunned the caves where they had dwelt.
But they dared not yet lay hands on the Lady of Dor-lómin, or thrust her from her house; for the word ran among them that she was perilous, and a witch who had dealings with the white-fiends: for so they named the Elves, hating them, but fearing them more. For this reason they also feared and avoided the mountains, in which many of the Eldar had taken refuge...
Morwen he had seen once, when he rode to her house on a foray; but a great dread of her had seized him. He thought that he had looked in the fell eyes of a white-fiend, and he was filled with a mortal fear lest some evil should overtake him...
I might stop just short of suggesting that folk paint their Noldor with glowing eyes. :) But ruleswise I don't know if I'd stop at offensive heavy foot and the wild charge of elite riders - there are the possibilities of mystical armour to represent their toughness; hatred of orcs to represent their rashness; and given the reaction of orcs and easterlings (their most common foes), perhaps Noldor should cause fear!
That'd make for a small, tough force, which seems appropriate, although the combination of rules would take elite foot and offensive heavy foot over the ten-point limit, much less allow room for other individual quirks. So the toughness (and valour, and so-on) of Noldor might also be represented by reduced-model units. Shiny-armoured bellicose foot could be used for wild charging heavy infantry, rather than slapping the extra point for hatred on offensive heavy foot. The stats might also suit the Noldor habit of going "Hack, slash, kill, slay! Oh, er, there are more orcs here than we thought..." As the book says, hatred might be best left off missile troops, too.
Fear... I like the idea of fear on Noldor. I think I'd use it myself if I ever get around to First-Age Dragon Rampant. But, like the other thoughts, YMMV. :)
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The mightiest of men could, indeed, defeat an elf lord. I don't think they would best the greatest of the elves (Feanor, Finrod etc). Both Turin and Beren were driven by fate (although this somewhat contradicts the idea that, unlike elves, men were free from fate) and this made them greater than would otherwise be the case.
I agree that fear and mystical armour could be applied, or perhaps orcs could be made fearful.
I would only make orcs light foot, not because they lack armour, but because of their inferior stature.
As far as points limits, I don't worry about this for Middle Earth gaming.
How would you represent Glaurung within the normal points limits, or Smaug (in the Third Age - greater warbeast, flying, fear would not be unreasonable, flame breath, deserves to have cunning - already 14 points)?
A great Noldo lord might be elite foot, fear, possibly missile and wizardling would not be unreasonable, and are likely to have a blessed weapon - 12 points.
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Thanks for these Silmarillion quotes, Vermis. It's been a while since I've read it, but it's all coming back to me and I think I might pick it up again sometime soon! Soom real magic in that book. The one event that I will always remember is Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, when the king of the eagles (Thorondor, is it?) swoops in and rakes Morgoth's face. Truly epic!
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Thanks for these Silmarillion quotes, Vermis. It's been a while since I've read it, but it's all coming back to me and I think I might pick it up again sometime soon! Soom real magic in that book. The one event that I will always remember is Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, when the king of the eagles (Thorondor, is it?) swoops in and rakes Morgoth's face. Truly epic!
Sorry, Vermis. I should also thank you for all the quotes.
Charlie, I must be of a more malencholy disposition. The thing I like about the Silmarillion is the tragedy of people who are essentially good and noble trapped in a fate that sees them do despicable acts and all their achievements are ultimately futile. My favourite character is Turin - that might make me a sick individual!
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Interesting stuff from all.
I would only make orcs light foot, not because they lack armour, but because of their inferior stature.
One tweak: mixed weapons. That way, you get the speed and the archery, but you loose the "wall of spears", which doesn't seem very orcish.
Then you can keep bellicose foot for the guards of a particularly nasty chief. For small orcs (which, in any age, don't seem to have been the main fighters), the "ravenous horde" profile seems appropriate.
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How would you represent Glaurung within the normal points limits, or Smaug (in the Third Age - greater warbeast, flying, fear would not be unreasonable, flame breath, deserves to have cunning - already 14 points)?
Glaurung would be a Greater Warbeast with breath attack. He shouldn't fly, as he was not a winged fire-drake. He should at very least cause fear...
Smaug is more tricky because of his nigh-on-invulnerable armour... Not sure how one would represent him, or if indeed one would want to as he's almost indestructible in the book...
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No probs, Charlie. :) After my slight disappointment with Tolkien's Gateway, I'm having fun looking up what Tolkien actually wrote. I think this was the reading of the Silmarillion that clicked for me, where I didn't have to constantly remind myself of the geography, genealogy and timeline.
As far as points limits, I don't worry about this for Middle Earth gaming.
How would you represent Glaurung within the normal points limits, or Smaug (in the Third Age - greater warbeast, flying, fear would not be unreasonable, flame breath, deserves to have cunning - already 14 points)?
Well, if we're ignoring restrictions... :) I'll forego the wall o' quotes for this one, but for Glaurung I agree with all you suggest. (Apart from Smaug's Flying, obviously) I'm also fairly impressed by the great reek he sends up when the Elves from Doriath are scouting Nargothrond, blinding and choking them, and sending their horses crazy. He pretty much nobbles most of them just by moving a few yards and taking a dip in the Narog! I'd think about giving him Wizardling with Befuddle Thee! and Dragon's Breath!, maybe Bog Thee! too. Maybe only when he's in contact with a piece of water terrain, although that first spell wouldn't be inappropriate for Glaurung whether he's in water or not.
Smaug is more tricky because of his nigh-on-invulnerable armour... Not sure how one would represent him, or if indeed one would want to as he's almost indestructible in the book...
I think the 'soft belly' stats of Greater Warbeasts suits Glaurung to a tee, but you're right about Smaug. On one hand, even Mystical Armour seems too little, but on the other, perhaps the delay offered by that rule - and even the first five strength points chopped out of him - represent his foes prodding around, searching for that bare armpit.
That, or use the Elite Riders entry for the extra defence, with Flying, Fear, and Mounted Missiles.
In either case I think I'd be fine with leaving off Cunning or Level-Headed for Smaug, and keeping Wild Charge. In the Third Age he's out for his own gratification - not carrying out Morgoth's or Sauron's schemes - is pretty (over?)confident in his invulnerability, and does seem to have a problem with his temper.
Sorry, Vermis. I should also thank you for all the quotes.
No probs! With you and Hobgoblin here, at the least, I already knew I was teaching Grandmother to suck eggses. :D
Charlie, I must be of a more malencholy disposition. The thing I like about the Silmarillion is the tragedy of people who are essentially good and noble trapped in a fate that sees them do despicable acts and all their achievements are ultimately futile. My favourite character is Turin - that might make me a sick individual!
Agreed, though! I also feel for Maedhros and Maglor, at the end of it all. Wretched in their fortunes and hopeless in their oath, but still compelled by it, 'with weariness and loathing', to challenge even the host of the Valar for the Silmarils. They actually succeed, but for all the good it does them...
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Vermis, I agree with Glaurung having spells, but I would modify this to some degree. Dragons breath if he enters water, befuddle thee would need to be at a closer range than 18" as it is the dragon's stare that beguiles people.
I have skimmed through a few sections of the Silmarillion in the last few days and teh first chapter of The Unfinished Tales - about Tuor as I recalled there was a lot of description of the elves arms and armour. I had thought that the armour left at Nevrast by Turgon was armour based on that from Aman (ie before the change to mail) but that proved to be a false recollection.
What is interesting is the shield at Nevrast was described as being long and tapering and unfamiliar to Tuor (his only contact with elves had been with Sindar). From this I take it that Sindar used smaller and likely round shields (as I suppose a heater could also be described at tapering and an oval shield as long). Noldor, it seems, using a kite shield.
I will even go as far to assume that the men of Hador also used a kite shield, although Tuor was born in the year of the Nirnaeth Anoediad and the arms and armour of the men of Hador would not have been seen for many years by the time he was old enough to start thinking of war.
There are several references to axes being the weapon of the Grey Elves (Sindar).
Noldor seem to prefer the sword and spear.
As a further argument for Noldor to have fear as a characteristic: " ... and he marvelled, for they were fairer and more fell to look upon, because of the light of their eyes, than any of the Elven-folk that he had yet known".
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I may be wrong about men being unbearded. Although there is nothing to state that they wore beards, likewise there is nothing to say they were clean shaven. I believed part of the rebuke that Saeros levelled at Turin was possibly because he was unshaven, but this episode is described well in the Unfinished Tales. We are told that his hair was unkempt and his grey cloak was "stained with the weather".
Saeros: " Doubless, Man of Hithlum, you came in haste to this table, and may be excused your ragged cloak; but you have no need to leave your head untended as a thicket of brambles. And perhaps if your ears were uncovered you would hear better what is said to you". No mention of a beard. Of interest, Turin is criticised for having hair covering his ears - did the Eldar have short hair or did they sweep it back from their ears?
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Three posts in a row on my own thread. I'm sure this is poor form; my apologies.
As far as Uruk Hai, or their equivalent in the First Age: "But the woodmen were worsted, for these Orcs were of a fell breed, fierce and cunning."
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Three posts in a row on my own thread. I'm sure this is poor form; my apologies.
Not at all! Keep 'em coming!
As far as Uruk Hai, or their equivalent in the First Age: "But the woodmen were worsted, for these Orcs were of a fell breed, fierce and cunning."
Good one! That's an excellent addition to the list.
I think that when you take all these snippets together, you get a very clear picture: that "great soldier-orcs" were created by Morgoth (in the First Age), Sauron (in the Second and Third Ages) and Saruman (at the end of the Third Age). The overthrow of each coincides with the destruction of the great bulk of their soldiery, leaving the smaller, "non-frontline" orcs to persist into other ages.
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Vermis, I agree with Glaurung having spells, but I would modify this to some degree. Dragons breath if he enters water, befuddle thee would need to be at a closer range than 18" as it is the dragon's stare that beguiles people.
I can see a fan supplement in the making - Balrog Rampant? :)
What is interesting is the shield at Nevrast was described as being long and tapering and unfamiliar to Tuor (his only contact with elves had been with Sindar). From this I take it that Sindar used smaller and likely round shields (as I suppose a heater could also be described at tapering and an oval shield as long). Noldor, it seems, using a kite shield.
There are several references to axes being the weapon of the Grey Elves (Sindar).
Noldor seem to prefer the sword and spear.
Sindar axes - I noticed! There's the wardens of Doriath who destroy an orc-legion in Brethil (with the help of some Haladin), the axe-armed Sindar guards of Gondolin's bronze gate, and a few other references. Although Doriath wardens at the northern marches - Beleg and Túrin at least - seem to prefer swords, and Thingol offered Túrin a place among his 'Knights of the Sword'. Mounted knights? Foot knights?
What difference axe-armed Sindar make in Dragon Rampant, I don't know. I'm slotting some of their spiritual descendants - WFB High Elf white lions - in as bellicose foot, but it doesn't seem too comfortable a fit for Sindar. Little evidence that they're particularly wild and abandoned in their axe-swinging, for one thing.
I agree that since the shape of a tapered shield is 'strange to his eyes', the Sindar who brought up Tuor wouldn't have used them. Though the Noldor didn't use tapered shields exclusively - the guards of Gondolin's gold gate (not mentioned to be Sindar, like the bronze gate guards, but absence of proof...) have round shields. They're all archers too. I wonder if that makes a difference, but I have trouble seeing how.
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I may end up with multiple postings one after the other.
Taking in the ideas of others on this thread:
Forces of Morgoth:
Orcs - Light Foot, hatred (elves), missile
Orcs - Bellicose Foot
Trolls - either Bellicose Foot, shiny armour + possibly fear; or Heavy Foot (slow and dumb, get in a tangle when in woods), offensive, fear. Both options would be reduced figure units.
Wargs - lesser warbeasts, cunning, fear vs cavalry.
Wolf riders - a little harder to figure, possibly just add "spore attack" to represent archery.
Werewolves - I feel these are separate from wargs, greater in size, more evil and more "magical" in nature. Possibly lesser warbeasts with venomous added for extra bite!
Balrogs - really depends on whether you believe they were winged or not. Greater warbeasts, fear, again, possibly venomous to account for the added damage of flame.
As this is a skirmish game there is a place for giant spiders and wraiths (Taur-nu-Fuin was said to be filled with evil spirits and became even worse once Sauron fled there). Using venomous for the werewloves seems a pity as spiders would also be warbeasts with venomous.
Although this touches on the nature of the Noldor, I will put a suggestion here as I believe it might capture some of the impetuosity of these elves.
Instead of giving them Hatred towards orcs (ie a compulsary wild charge against these) I wonder about the orcs have a special rule. Pay 1 point to have captured Noldor. They can elect to slay the captives (in some despicable way) and this causes any Noldor, within range, to be subject to testing for wild charge in their next turn.
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Elves or possibly more correctly, Eldar (not Quendi as I am not including the Avari)
To represent the greater strength and training of the elves I am considering using "Slayer" quite liberally. Is this too much? As orcs, as proposed above, cannot be heavy foot this may be a big enough difference in quality. Also, it may mean there are not enough other characteristics to make heroes distinctive enough.
If Eldar are only heavy foot and orcs are light foot, where does this leave the likes of the men of Hador and Bëor?
Noldor Infantry: Heavy Foot, Offensive, Slayer (orcs), fear. See the post about Morgoth's forces, but possibly also add hatred (orcs).
The variation here would be the forces of Gondolin who seem to have been, as a field army, spear armed and perhaps better on the defence. These would not have the offensive characteristic (and therefore use wall of spears) and possibly shouldn't have hatred (but might still be appropriate if using the alternative roll of the orcs being able to goad them into rashness).
Sindar Infantry: Heavy Foot, slayer (orcs), but do not have fear. This may make them too close to the Noldor in capabilities, but they are are still mightier than other Moriquendi and men.
"Rangers". The forces of Nargothrond and Doriath and most likely Dorthonion did a lot of fighting in woods. For these troops I would suggest Elite Foot, missile, slayer (orcs) and Fear if they are Noldor.
Archers: Light archers, fear (if Noldor), sharp shooter (if Sindar or Nandor/Laiquendi). Do we also allow slayer????
There seem to be plenty of references to mounted archers, but I think I need to give more thought about how these should look.
Clearly there would be plenty of heroes that need customising and would be single figure units. Wizardling would be a reasonably common addition.
The Edain of the houses of Hador and Bëor fought with the elven hosts and are easily added here. I think these are mainly heavy foot, without any special rules. Again, they need a smattering of heroes. Probably use skirmishers rather than formed units of archers.
The Haladin were quite different from the other Edain and need more consideration. Probably mainly light foot and archers.
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Thunderbolt Mountain High Elves, but I think they look more like Sindar.
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu95/anthonymarch/Sindar%20Infantry_zpsvyn3h7aw.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/anthonymarch/media/Sindar%20Infantry_zpsvyn3h7aw.jpg.html)
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu95/anthonymarch/sindar%20archers_zpsoasuepqp.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/anthonymarch/media/sindar%20archers_zpsoasuepqp.jpg.html)
It might be possible to swap out a spear for an axe???
These next guys look how I imagine Noldor, they may be a bit on the small side (I think they are more 25 than 28mm) so I'm unsure how they go with 28mm dark ages miniatures or Thunderbolt Mt.
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu95/anthonymarch/Noldor%20spears_zpskuj7mvar.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/anthonymarch/media/Noldor%20spears_zpskuj7mvar.jpg.html)
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu95/anthonymarch/Noldor%20archers_zpst489z38h.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/anthonymarch/media/Noldor%20archers_zpst489z38h.jpg.html)
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu95/anthonymarch/Noldor%20infantry_zpsmu90dkvy.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/anthonymarch/media/Noldor%20infantry_zpsmu90dkvy.jpg.html)
It is annoying that no one seems to make elves with the more traditional (Tolkien and D&D) long sword and shield. Two handed weapons seems to be more common.
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Balrogs - the last reading of the Sil actually diminished these for me. (Moreso than the 'it says they only looked like wings' argument...)
And by the valour of the Elves and Men of the North, which neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome, Hithlum remained unconquered...
At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces...
One of them might make Third Age Sindar and Dwarves lose it, just by the sight of it; but seems like they ain't no thing to First Age Noldor and Edain, and it takes two (including their best) to take out the Noldor king. I'd even thought of taking fear off them, though I suppose if Noldor have the same, it cancels out. What about Edain? Could they leave it to the Noldor to be the specialist balrog exterminators, while they stand fast behind a shieldwall?
It also made me think of them as something other than the giant bull-headed monsters of John Howe's art and the movies, though that's by-the-by except for perhaps one little thought - elite foot rather than warbeast?
Spiders - flying/burrowing might be entertaining, representing their climbing and scuttling abilities. That or a limited-range bog thee!
Captured Noldor - on one hand it seems like a complication, and a bit convenient to have supplies of Noldor for every skirmish. :) But on the other, it's an interesting quirk, and I don't really dislike it.
Slayer - interesting. It'd really pump up their elite nature and evoke that 'Orcs unaided no match for Noldor' bit. Though with everything else, a big points-cost unit that you wouldn't squeeze into 24 or even 36 points too many times. I wonder how it'd play.
Elf archers - no love for scouts? :) I think the evasive rules would suit the secretive 'guerilla' descriptions of Nargothrond Noldor and Laiquendi, short of giving them invisibility.
Models - my mind's eye runs a bit more mundane than Tom Meier's, but they still look fantastic - goes without saying. The other models (I've seen them before, can't remember where they're from - Grenadier/Mirliton?) are more like it, IMO, but I might prefer longer hauberks and fewer Prince George poses (http://www.emeraldfrog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/the-stance-400x269.jpg). :)
Everything else - agreed!
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If you are looking to keep the 10 point limit (note, I said if...), you may wish to make all non-Elves Fearful instead of giving the Noldor the fear rule. The net effect would be the same, and their opponents would be more numerous for that horde effect.
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Vermis: I may give things a try on the weekend. Probably need approx 48 points. I did wonder about scouts, but I think most Noldor are pretty nasty and need some hand to hand capabilities. Nandor/Laiquendi certainly fit with Scouts. The other figures are, indeed, Mirliton/Grenadier. I am quite taken with them despite the age of the sculpts and the funny stance of the spearmen in particular.
dbsubashi: Yes, I agree, fearful may be a good way to go if one wants to keep to points limits.
Of course, one might argue that you could simple represent Sindar as reduced bases of, perhaps 8 and Noldor reduced to 6 (for 12 SP units), but this takes the fun out of things. The only problem with this is that it makes everything a bit vanilla, especially as magic is quite low key in Tolkien's works.
I did a small mock up of a battle, just put up 3 Noldor infantry against four orcs (two light foot with missiles and two bellicose foot) and had one unit of trolls.
The Noldor smashed the orcs and the trolls smashed all the Noldor. Perhaps trolls are better as elite foot with only 6 SP. Attack dice of 3+, counter charge and shiny armour make trolls almost unstoppable, and yet Elves could defeat trolls (especially when you consider, as Vermis points out, it takes two Balrogs - much nastier than trolls- to take out a Noldo king).
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Balrogs - the last reading of the Sil actually diminished these for me. (Moreso than the 'it says they only looked like wings' argument...)
One of them might make Third Age Sindar and Dwarves lose it, just by the sight of it; but seems like they ain't no thing to First Age Noldor and Edain, and it takes two (including their best) to take out the Noldor king. I'd even thought of taking fear off them, though I suppose if Noldor have the same, it cancels out. What about Edain? Could they leave it to the Noldor to be the specialist balrog exterminators, while they stand fast behind a shieldwall?
It also made me think of them as something other than the giant bull-headed monsters of John Howe's art and the movies, though that's by-the-by except for perhaps one little thought - elite foot rather than warbeast?
Those bull-headed/generic-demonic illustrations are wildly off what any of the texts say. Balrogs are never described as having horns or tails; the only indication of an animalistic appearance is the "mane" described in Moria (and "mane" is often used of humans: see Robert E Howard's endless descriptions of Conan). It's hard to see how an bestial creature with horns, wings, a tail, goat-like legs, etc., could fit even this vague description: "it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater" - and yet not come into focus later.
Another point: it's pretty clear that Tolkien changed his ideas on Balrogs over time, making them fewer in number (from hundreds to seven, if memory serves) and more powerful. So, for the texts in which the "many Balrogs" idea still holds, "Elite Foot" sounds highly appropriate.
An aside on the wings thing: I do think that the flying/batlike-wings argument is very largely a case of people (often unconsciously) trying to justify the received images of balrogs in illustrations and films. On which, three points:
If the "wings" spread from wall to wall in the huge hall in Moria through which the bridge of Khazad-dum ran, then they would be vastly out of proportion to their owner on the bridge. Not so if they're just its spreading cloak of shadow darkening the hall. If you follow the whole passage and try a sketch, you'll see what I mean. ;)
If the balrog were a flying creature, why did Gandalf try to defeat it by breaking the bridge? Remember, he didn't mean to be dragged down by its whip.
And - crucially to my mind - while the description shifts from "shadow" to "shadow [THAT] reached out like two vast wings" to "wings spread from wall to wall", it also shifts back. When the balrog falls, we get this line:
""With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished." [Emphasis mine]
More than anything else, it's that line that convinces me that the "wings" were just the "shadow" stretched out to either side - hence the greater darkness in the chamber:
"The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm."
Note that "its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom". The "but" is crucial here. Why would the fact that Gandalf could be seen be contrasted with the wings - unless the wings were just the extended darkness that surrounded the balrog?
Just thought I'd throw that in here! :D
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I hope it is OK posting a link to someone else's blog. This is exactly what I am thinking about:
http://iron-mitten.blogspot.co.nz/2016_06_01_archive.html
Also, I am having second thoughts about using lots of added stats /characteristics for elves. Really, DR is about simplicity and the easiest thing to do is use reduced figure units for Noldor and Sindar, although I would still give Noldor "Fear" making a single unit of foot cost 4+ 2 for fear and +2 for offensive for a total of 8.
Games would have to be played at 48 + points.
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Re balrogs and Noldor kings. The Noldor King would be at least as powerful as someone like Galadriel. For first age battles there is somthing to he said for having a great disparity between the elves and orcs. If that is done through boosting the elves or reducing the orcs or some combo of the two.
Eg orcs are light foot or worse with fearful. Elves as heavy foot and elite foot with fear and I would suggest leaders have wizardling at least.
The archers could be elite light missile with invisibility.
Balrog - elite foot with fear and wizardling (with the befuddle thee spell)
Trolls Bellicose foot with mystic armour
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With reference to the figures mentioned earlier, it is my dearest wish that someone would produce a range of proper Dark Ages style 'High' Elves as hinted at in the Silmarilion - long mail hauberks, choice of round or long kite shield, spear or long sword armed... But most ranges either pander to GW WFB styles or LOTR movie styles or generic fantasy stereotype... *sigh*
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What unit type were the trolls, Ethelred? Offensive heavy foot?
Just thought I'd throw that in here! :D
Spoilsport. lol But, yeah, I've been wondering how one would sculpt a mini 'of man shape, but greater', all swathed in shadow.
I hope it is OK posting a link to someone else's blog. This is exactly what I am thinking about:
http://iron-mitten.blogspot.co.nz/2016_06_01_archive.html
Oh yes.
With reference to the figures mentioned earlier, it is my dearest wish that someone would produce a range of proper Dark Ages style 'High' Elves as hinted at in the Silmarilion - long mail hauberks, choice of round or long kite shield, spear or long sword armed... But most ranges either pander to GW WFB styles or LOTR movie styles or generic fantasy stereotype... *sigh*
I know exactly what you mean, and I feel the same way.
Also, you remind of the trailer for the new King Arthur movie that I saw recently. And now I'm sad.
Jon: elite light missile? :)
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Played a quick game to try out some ideas.
I decided reduced figure units is the best way to go for elves. All the extra rules might slow the game down and leave heroes with no juicy abilities.
Noldor were: 2x offensive heavy foot with fear (8 point units); 1x archers, mystic armour and fear (8 points - yes, I know fear isn't too useful for archers, but sometimes life is just that way; they are not sharp shooters as this is reserved for Sindar and Laiquendi); 1x "rangers" - elite foot, missiles, fear (10 points); a wizardling with one heavy infantry unit (2 points); hero - elite foot, venomous, fear (11 points). Total 47 points.
Orcs: 2x bellicose foot (8 points); 2 x skirmishers (4 points); 1x wargs, lesser warbeasts, cunning, fear (8 points); 1x trolls - lesser war beasts with terrifically shiny armour, fear, cunning (10 points); 3x light foot, offensive (15 points); 1x light foot with missiles (5 points). Total 50 points (it was meant to be 48 points but part way through the game I added cunning to the trolls).
This gave the elves (really Saxons) 22 figures against 84 orcs (actually Vikings), 2 trolls and 4 wolves plus a warg for a total of 91 total bad guys, or 5 units against 10.
Elves won (just). This seemed to give the right feel.
Clearly, with all the extras added on, a minimum of 40-48 points seems to be needed.
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Elthered: That sounds a great game, I'll be giving these ideas a try (when I can find my LOTR stuff after the house rebuilding has finished!).
This has been a great thread, once again I'm really enjoying it.
I wrote a piece on the army of Gondolin once, which was published in Practical Wargamer over 20 years ago. Unfortunately I never got the original notes and drawings back and I can't find my copy of the magazine!
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Jon: elite light missile? :)
Sorry meant Sharp Shooter - was thinking of expert from Lion Rampant.
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What unit type were the trolls, Ethelred? Offensive heavy foot?
Spoilsport. lol But, yeah, I've been wondering how one would sculpt a mini 'of man shape, but greater', all swathed in shadow.
(Excuse the tangent!) I was thinking about this - how to do a Tolkienish balrog - and something occurred to me. What about one of the larger Goodwin or Copplestone wood elves - the war dancers or whatever they're called? I reckon a lightly clad, large (those elves are quite big, I think, and beefy with it), big-haired elf with the addition of a whip would make a pretty good balrog. The LotR balrog seems to be an agile, leaping creature. We know it has a mane, and we know its weapons, but that's about all we get.
I don't think I have any of those, but I might have a brief forage, just in case. If one of the dynamic, leaping ones were to receive a green-stuff and wire whip, and then had its skin painted jet black and its eyes, mane and sword painted fierily, I reckon it would very much look the part - especially against a "true 25 Gandalf".
The shadow, of course, remains a problem, though I imagine better painters who can do those light effects would have no problem in creating an aura of darkness via the base. I'd probably just paint most of the base as scorched or shaded, with occasional embers glowing through ...
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A wingless Balrog?
Efreeti Emir, Reaper
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu95/anthonymarch/efreeti_zpsgzlfhs5u.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/anthonymarch/media/efreeti_zpsgzlfhs5u.jpg.html)
Or a mighty winged Balrog?
A fire demon, also from Reaper. This must be a large figure as it costs $22.
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu95/anthonymarch/nagauloth_zpsmm7migmu.jpg) (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/anthonymarch/media/nagauloth_zpsmm7migmu.jpg.html)
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Hello great thread I noticed you said no one makes sword and board elve I just checked ral partha and they have chainmail clad elves in their fantasy armies section
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Nice one MamlukRaider, I have a bunch of those in my Elvish army, along with a load of the old Grenadier High Elves.
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MamlukRaider, I had seen the Ral Partha Elves but discounted them as looking too Dark Elvish and possibly too small. Having another look at them, they are rather nice.
Sunjester, any chance of seeing your elves? Also, if possible, could you manage a photograph of Grenadier and Ral Partha elves next to a more modern historical 28mm figure?
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I'll see what I can do, but a lot of my gaming stuff is packed away in the loft whilst we undergo major house refurbishment.
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With reference to the figures mentioned earlier, it is my dearest wish that someone would produce a range of proper Dark Ages style 'High' Elves as hinted at in the Silmarilion - long mail hauberks, choice of round or long kite shield, spear or long sword armed... But most ranges either pander to GW WFB styles or LOTR movie styles or generic fantasy stereotype... *sigh*
How about these elves?
http://www.sgmm.biz/Bloody-Day-28mm-Fantasy_c_23.html
And the dwarves and orcs too?!
I've got some sample units coming so I don't know if the shields are cast on or separate yet. But I like the overall 'realistic' dark age look to the Elves, orcs and dwarves.
Great thread. Just starting to get into this myself. So lots of ideas.
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Realistic accoutrements are fine, it's the sculpting style that sends me to sleep. Did so back when they were sold by Vendel.
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I'm fine with the non exaggerated poses of them.
I find a lot of fantasy sculpts are trying too hard to be dramatic and they end up looking silly or they can't fit into a unit.
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Not so much the poses. (Not so much) I'm not looking for something with a Prince George (http://www.emeraldfrog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/the-stance.jpg) stance or that looks like an AoS or Malifaux character, myself. It's the look of generic historicals - stumpy drainpipe limbs and mitten hands and all, skimmed over with relatively appropriate clothing. In this case the 'clothing' includes ocassional pointy ears and noses, squashing some a bit shorter, and a few 'angry' faces. That last thing alone might seem like a massive departure from historicals, but for me it's not enough to shake the impression that they're a bit workmanlike and phoned-in, rather than imaginative or evocative.
But don't take it too personally - most older sculpts (and, as mentioned, modern sculpts) that I consider for Middle-Earth gaming dissatisfy me in one way or another, being too staid, too crude, too 'fantasy', or too over the top. I'm a fussy bugger. And it's irritating because M-E gaming is something I'd very much like to dive into. I'm starting to think that since I can't find the type of minis I want (and moan about it), I need to step up to the plate and make some myself.